MIMF

can some one please show me the difference between a "bolt in" and a bolt on neck. In this case google is really not your friend as every search I made with bolt in neck showed only returns for bolt on neck


Mark

Hi Mark,
Please note we require the use of real first and last names on this forum. Please PM me or one of the moderators with your name and we'll update your registration. Thanks!

Um, a creative marketing department?

I consider all necks attached with bolts, no matter where said bolts reside, as 'bolt on necks'. I also believe that while there are some tonal differences between various attachment methods, the 'improved sustain' myth is just that, a myth, and that any solidly constructed neck joint will provide perfectly excellent tone.

+1
If it's attached with metal fasteners of any description, it's a bolt-on neck.
There's several types of neck joints, and some of them may be attached with metal fasteners or glue.

Rodger Knox wrote:+1
If it's attached with metal fasteners of any description, it's a bolt-on neck.
There's several types of neck joints, and some of them may be attached with metal fasteners or glue.

I was asking a supplier of bodies and necks and he told me in an email that they are different things so I thought I would ask since the supplier never answered and told me the difference.


Mark

Hi Mark,

Again, please note that we require the use of real first and last names on this forum. Please let me or one of the other staff members know your full name either here, or in a private message, so that we can update your registration for you.
This is your second reminder.
Thanks.

Greg Robinson wrote:Hi Mark,

Again, please note that we require the use of real first and last names on this forum. Please let me or one of the other staff members know your full name either here, or in a private message, so that we can update your registration for you.
This is your second reminder.
Thanks.

Maybe I am just getting cantankerous in my old age, But I find the fact that I was asked this more then once and complied with the pm, just a tad annoying, you felt the need to re-hash the above post why? this is just a resource that you and others provide for musical instrument maker or , as in my case. a retiree who wants to be. this is not the fbi, in fact I never comply with them and I have had more then my share of law enforcement involvement. The other guy asked me and I complied. What more do you want? are you hiding some unknown magical instrument plans that are protected by sprites or something? I am sorry if you do not like this post, but I do not like being pestered unnecessarily. all I am trying to do is find a place to fit in and get some information to get me started on some guitar building things I have always thought about but was afraid to try. I do not supply DNA so please do not ask.


MARK BELLAMY

Thanks, Mark. Either whoever you emailed that to never got it, or for some reason it got lost or whatever. All we are trying to do is run a smooth Forum here, and everyone has to follow a certain (small amount) of rules to keep the place from turning into chaos. Any time you deal with large groups of people there are bound to be problems with keeping it all organized, so please just bear with us through our transition and enjoy your experience here. Just log in with your real name now and everything will work just fine for us all, and thanks.

Mark Swanson wrote:Thanks, Mark. Either whoever you emailed that to never got it, or for some reason it got lost or whatever. All we are trying to do is run a smooth Forum here, and everyone has to follow a certain (small amount) of rules to keep the place from turning into chaos. Any time you deal with large groups of people there are bound to be problems with keeping it all organized, so please just bear with us through our transition and enjoy your experience here. Just log in with your real name now and everything will work just fine for us all, and thanks.

I am sorry, I am cranky lately as I am getting chemo and not feeling my self. its hard to figure out which is worse, the illness or the treatment.


Mark

Just by way of background, I found this on wikipedia:

Some sources differentiate bolt-on and bolt-in neck construction.

The difference is that a bolt-on neck involves constructing a protruding flange that fits inside a routed pocket in the guitar body. Then the neck is secured inside this pocket using screws that run perpendicular (at right angles) to the surface of the guitar. In contrast, a bolt-in neck doesn't need to have such a flange inside the guitar body, and screws or bolts run parallel to the surface of guitar, entering the back of the heel.

Usually (but not always), in bolt-in variant, a neck pickup is mounted directly on the extended neck wood underneath it, not on the guitar body. This has been referred to as "direct coupling", because the pickup is mounted on the neck and not the body, in other words, directly coupled to the neck, and is considered superior by some in terms of tone.

Bolt-in neck is used in electric guitars on a regular basis, but on acoustic guitars it is somewhat rare, and harder to produce. However it is considered superior by some in terms of sound and playability. However, given a relative uncommonness of bolt-in necks in electric guitars, most luthiers call both neck joints "bolt-on".

Oh man! Best of luck to you!

Mark, if the supplier told you that "bolt-on" and "bolt-in" were different things, then he is the one to explain the difference.
He may supply products that are different, but that's not a common terminology among people that work on guitars.
If I was going to make a distinction, the bolt-on has the screws perpendicular to the strings, the bolt-in has the screws parallel to the strings. That's backwards from wiki

Yes Roger but bolt-on necks as you describe would only be used on electric solid-body guitars, right? That type of neck joint has never been used to good effect on an acoustic guitar.
I think what Mark is asking is about the differences in neck joints and that is a big subject. And like it's already been said, once the neck join is done and properly executed there isn't any significant difference and the choice is up to the builder. Which process fits that builders' experience and capabilities? Which one could you pull off the best, Mark?
The only real difference is between a badly done neck joint and a good one.
I just checked myself here and noticed this is in the solid-body section, I overlooked that. But still what I said remains...and so I think Mark needs to better describe the kind of guitar he's wanting to build. There are many kinds of electric guitar too of course and they all use the different neck joints- as Roger said.

Rodger Knox wrote:Mark, if the supplier told you that "bolt-on" and "bolt-in" were different things, then he is the one to explain the difference.
He may supply products that are different, but that's not a common terminology among people that work on guitars.
If I was going to make a distinction, the bolt-on has the screws perpendicular to the strings, the bolt-in has the screws parallel to the strings. That's backwards from wiki

Basically, I read it on a supplier or builders site but he no longer keeps it up and it has no real explanations. I am just forced into retirement and want to build a tenor length guitar, or mod another guitar to do so. I have always wanted to get into a school for this but the army and other classes and family got in the way and now in Virginia beach there are no classes for instrument design/ building. also, I am trying to find the most inexpensive way to go about it. I have time and patience. I have a couple of those mini squiers new in a box that a neighbor gave me for packing away her husbands shop who recently passed away in combat and he was a hobby guitar modr builder from the looks of the original shop, he had bought maybe 20-30 inexpensive electric guitars and bass... I want to figure away to mod this into a true electric tenor.

I was also asking so I could fit an purchased neck onto an cbg build, so I am looking for info on "bolt on" neck through and set necks.

The other project Is I have a lp builder kit new in a box and I wanted to get a neck made for it with 4 strings for tenor, but they most always come predrilled for 6 with a 25 1/2 to 25 3/4 scale length. perhaps there is a way to mod a neck for this.


Mark

Mark Bellamy wrote:Maybe I am just getting cantankerous in my old age, But I find the fact that I was asked this more then once and complied with the pm, just a tad annoying, you felt the need to re-hash the above post why? this is just a resource that you and others provide for musical instrument maker or , as in my case. a retiree who wants to be. this is not the fbi, in fact I never comply with them and I have had more then my share of law enforcement involvement. The other guy asked me and I complied. What more do you want? are you hiding some unknown magical instrument plans that are protected by sprites or something? I am sorry if you do not like this post, but I do not like being pestered unnecessarily. all I am trying to do is find a place to fit in and get some information to get me started on some guitar building things I have always thought about but was afraid to try. I do not supply DNA so please do not ask.


MARK BELLAMY

Apologies for that Mark, you'd posted again before Charlie had an opportunity to update your registration, I wasn't aware you had private messaged him, and because you didn't mention your name in that post, it is standard policy here to give a second reminder in case you had overlooked that request. Sorry if I came across as terse, I just wanted to get that resolved before dealing with your question, one thing at a time, as it were.

Also, best of luck with your cancer treatment, I can understand how that could make you "cantankerous" as you put it. Best of luck with your health concerns, I wish you a speedy recovery.

With regards to the Wikipedia article Charlie quoted above, a number of years ago, I was a significant contributor to the article, having written or re-written a number of sections. Despite my using large numbers of references at the time, a lot of the information that I included was removed for the sake of brevity, often leaving incomplete and/or confusing or contradictory information. I argued my case with the powers that be at Wiki at the time, but it was argued that Wikipedia articles were not supposed to be exhaustive references.

It seems some of that attitude has changed now, and as a result the incomplete/incorrect/confused/biased information has been expounded upon.


Frankly, the only time that I have heard a distinction made between a "bolt-on" and "bolt-in" neck was in marketing material: some claim or other about superior vibration transmission or some-such.
I'm in the camp that will call any guitar neck joint that includes a fastener instead of glue a bolt-on neck. The exact geometry of the joint does not make any real difference to the sonic character of the instrument so long as it is a properly made joint. But then, I'm in the camp of people who don't believe there is a sonic difference between bolt-on and set necks.

To satisfy my own curiosity one time, I took a Strat type guitar with a very tight-fitting bolt-on neck joint, removed the screws and neck plate, plugged the holes and otherwise prepared the joint to be glued, and once done, compared.
Now, it might not be a double blind test with a large sample size, but I could be considered to have "golden ears", being able to hear reliably well out past 20kHz with a +/-1dB threshold, and I could not hear any difference.


Now in regards to your search for a pre-made tenor or short-scale neck that will work with an existing body, I have never seen anything like this, and would be surprised if you could find anything available anywhere.
You could of course modify a pre-made neck, perhaps by filling the six tuner holes, maybe adding a decorative veneer on the front and back to hide the original holes, and re-drill for four tuners.
You could also cut the headstock off, shorten the scale length by cutting down the fretboard, and then re-attach the headstock at the shorter scale length, or make an entirely new headstock.

There are a few ideas you can pursue.

Hope this helps, and good luck.

Greg Robinson wrote:

Mark Bellamy wrote:Maybe I am just getting cantankerous in my old age, But I find the fact that I was asked this more then once and complied with the pm, just a tad annoying, you felt the need to re-hash the above post why? this is just a resource that you and others provide for musical instrument maker or , as in my case. a retiree who wants to be. this is not the fbi, in fact I never comply with them and I have had more then my share of law enforcement involvement. The other guy asked me and I complied. What more do you want? are you hiding some unknown magical instrument plans that are protected by sprites or something? I am sorry if you do not like this post, but I do not like being pestered unnecessarily. all I am trying to do is find a place to fit in and get some information to get me started on some guitar building things I have always thought about but was afraid to try. I do not supply DNA so please do not ask.


MARK BELLAMY

Apologies for that Mark, you'd posted again before Charlie had an opportunity to update your registration, I wasn't aware you had private messaged him, and because you didn't mention your name in that post, it is standard policy here to give a second reminder in case you had overlooked that request. Sorry if I came across as terse, I just wanted to get that resolved before dealing with your question, one thing at a time, as it were.

Also, best of luck with your cancer treatment, I can understand how that could make you "cantankerous" as you put it. Best of luck with your health concerns, I wish you a speedy recovery.

With regards to the Wikipedia article Charlie quoted above, a number of years ago, I was a significant contributor to the article, having written or re-written a number of sections. Despite my using large numbers of references at the time, a lot of the information that I included was removed for the sake of brevity, often leaving incomplete and/or confusing or contradictory information. I argued my case with the powers that be at Wiki at the time, but it was argued that Wikipedia articles were not supposed to be exhaustive references.

It seems some of that attitude has changed now, and as a result the incomplete/incorrect/confused/biased information has been expounded upon.


Frankly, the only time that I have heard a distinction made between a "bolt-on" and "bolt-in" neck was in marketing material: some claim or other about superior vibration transmission or some-such.
I'm in the camp that will call any guitar neck joint that includes a fastener instead of glue a bolt-on neck. The exact geometry of the joint does not make any real difference to the sonic character of the instrument so long as it is a properly made joint. But then, I'm in the camp of people who don't believe there is a sonic difference between bolt-on and set necks.

To satisfy my own curiosity one time, I took a Strat type guitar with a very tight-fitting bolt-on neck joint, removed the screws and neck plate, plugged the holes and otherwise prepared the joint to be glued, and once done, compared.
Now, it might not be a double blind test with a large sample size, but I could be considered to have "golden ears", being able to hear reliably well out past 20kHz with a +/-1dB threshold, and I could not hear any difference.


Now in regards to your search for a pre-made tenor or short-scale neck that will work with an existing body, I have never seen anything like this, and would be surprised if you could find anything available anywhere.
You could of course modify a pre-made neck, perhaps by filling the six tuner holes, maybe adding a decorative veneer on the front and back to hide the original holes, and re-drill for four tuners.
You could also cut the headstock off, shorten the scale length by cutting down the fretboard, and then re-attach the headstock at the shorter scale length, or make an entirely new headstock.

There are a few ideas you can pursue.

Hope this helps, and good luck.

See the last part of the post above yours...I have this in mind. I just lack the knowledge to pursue it.

Mark

Mark Bellamy wrote:See the last part of the post above yours...I have this in mind. I just lack the knowledge to pursue it.

Mark

Not sure I follow Mark, was I not clear in explaining my ideas for how you could proceed, did you want more detail? At some point you just need to jump in and try something, you only learn by doing, that's how we all got the "knowledge to pursue" this passion. If you have any specific questions though, we'd be happy to help out in your pursuit of knowledge.

Greg Robinson wrote:

Mark Bellamy wrote:See the last part of the post above yours...I have this in mind. I just lack the knowledge to pursue it.

Mark

Not sure I follow Mark, was I not clear in explaining my ideas for how you could proceed, did you want more detail? At some point you just need to jump in and try something, you only learn by doing, that's how we all got the "knowledge to pursue" this passion. If you have any specific questions though, we'd be happy to help out in your pursuit of knowledge.

I have no Idea where to start...no , you were clear generally speaking...as I have never done this before I am not inclined to wreck something without some Idea of where my wrecked ship will land..........on the shore...or on the bottom with the carnivores I had already figured to some degree what you spoke of... I am trying to figure out how to best go about it. Your posts are philosophically based, you know, you could do this or you could do that. I will make a new post, surely with all the guitars I have seen on here some on has changed and adapted a neck and documented it.


Lets compare apples to oranges..., before I was in the army I was in pararescue I can swim anywhere in most any conditions including a hurricane, but I would not throw my kid over the side in 12 to 15 ft. swells and say hey the information is out there hope you learned it, read a book or what not...go fish. which is the equivalent of your answer Greg. but I appreciate the fact that you replied.


Mark

Hi Mark, my understanding of bolt on/in necks is that a bolt on uses wood screws that enter predrilled holes in the neck and are screwed into the neck directly whereas a bolt in neck uses machine screws that are threaded into threaded inserts installed in the neck. The term "bolt on" is confusing as the neck is actually "screwed" on in most cases.I hope this helps.
James

Mr. Bellamy,
One of the hardest things about starting this hobby is that you don't know what you don't know, so it's difficult to ask questions specific enough to be answered here.
It's pretty clear you want to build a tenor guitar. You have some project guitars and a LP kit to work from, and don't really know how to decide what's next.
I'd suggest you make your own neck and fretboard, it's not nearly as difficult as you might imagine. I believe it will be difficult to find a commercially available neck that will fit either one of your project guitars or the LP kit, while making one that will fit is relatively easy.
We need to know a little more information to provide any meaningful direction. What scale length do you want to use, and what scale lengths might be modified? Photographs of the neck connections of your project guitars and the kit body would be helpful. We need to understand what you have to start with, how "finished" is the kit? Is the neck already fitted to the body? Is the fretboard attached, slotted, or fretted? Do you know what kind of bridge you want to use, or the string spacing at the bridge? There's so many ways to do this, depending on what you have and what you want.