Problems with EnduroVar II, Time to Change

[Mike Conner]

Recently completed two flattop guitar builds using EnduroVar II. I had really good results with the original EnduroVar formulation for prior builds (archtops, Flattops and a Dobro). Unfortunately the original was discontinued and replaced with a "refomulated" EnduroVar II. Really not satisfied with the EnduroVar II results:
- Drying and curing time seems about the same, but the odor, while not unpleasant, is much stronger and lingers for weeks longer than the original.
- It does not behave as consistently with wet sanding.
- try as I may, I cannot achieve the same deep, scratch-free gloss that I had with the original.

So, General Finishes has failed me, and it's time for me to try something else!

Taking lots of time reviewing in the MIMF, the common alternatives seem to be Target EM60000 or CrystalLac Britetone. I really want to stay with brushing the finish, and it seems like either could be successful.

? Curious whether others have had the same negative experience with EnduroVar II?

? Any strong recommendations either way between EM6000 or BriteTone? I realize and respect that we each develop our own preferred methods from experience , both positive and negative.

//mike

[Mike Conner]

Just took the most recent build out of the case, where it has rested now for several weeks, to check the setup etc. for delivery tomorrow. The EnduroVar II finish still has an odor! Likely resting in the case contributed to retaining the lingering 'fragrance'. It's not unpleasant, but it is noticeable. The original EnduroVar did not have a lingering funk at all!

I do have a 1990 Taylor 810 that still smells like rosewood all these years later. Makes me smile every time!

I have received 8 oz of Brite Tone, and loading the LMII cart for a quart of EM6000. The product testing madness will begin in the next couple of weeks. The Adams polisher will be a gift from my Bride next week (sshh - it's a secret!)
//mike

[Marshall Dixon]

The only thing I have first hand knowledge of is EMTEC 6000. And, except for touch up, have sprayed it. I always use the CL100 cross-linker because it makes sense when you read about it. I find that it needs more cure time than stated (and my shop is dehumidified).

Brushing application wouldn't be much different. Put it on and level it. Repeat as needed. Don't get it on too thick.
Brushing is much harder for me. But have blended small areas by brushing because I didn't want to set up all the spray paraphernalia.

It's a clear finish. Being a waterborne finish it lacks the grain enhancement you get with nitro and oils. So I always primer with blond or orange dewaxed shellac. If you want to add color to the mix, that's possible. You'll have to do something additional and compatible if you want more in the way of color.

Last time I bought it (maybe 4 years ago) it was close to $100/gal (direct from Target Coatings, but I see LMII sells it by the quart). After 2 years I still had enough for 2 guitars. I thought the cure time was even slower. I'm thinking that I don't want to have gallon cans of expensive finish sitting around.

For me the hardest part of finishing is the sanding. I've tried using water, mild soapy water, linseed oil, mineral oil and what I am doing now is dry sanding.

When sanding using any of the above methods the problem is the formation of little 'corns' or globs of the dust on the surface of the paper. The finer the grit the quicker it happens. If they don't come off with a stiff brush (I use a file brush clamped to my bench with the bristles up so I can swipe the sanding block over it single handed) then I have to dig them out with a sharp pointed marking gage. Otherwise they will gouge the surface, and just one of these gouges causes a problem with filling, leveling, blending, etc.

So my method for sanding is to sand dry with as long a stroke as possible in one direction, finishing the stroke by pushing the dust off the surface edge. After several strokes I check the paper surface and clean it in the file brush clamped to the bench. In my other hand I have a soft bristled brush to clean the surface just as frequently. This seems to work best to prevent the agglomeration of dust particles. And the job goes faster because of not having to touch up scratches.

I like the stuff but brushing it on would be more of a challenge for me. I've been brushing varnish on furniture for 50 years and it is still a headache with dust particles, loose bristles coming off in the finish, uneven leveling and runs. I would probably opt for a disposable foam brush.

EMTEC is a faster drying finish than typical varnishes. You're probably going to brush it on thicker than you would if spraying so will increase the cure time. Sand the finish before before it's dry and it won't come off as dust but roll up on the sandpaper.

Best of luck with your projects. I think you'll like the EMTEC. It binds to itself without witness marks. As mentioned though it has a clear, bland appearance but I find a sealer coat of dewaxed shellac helps this. I have touched up a nitro finish with it and it worked well.

[Barry Daniels]

I dry sand my lacquer finishes but the issues are the same. The best way I have found to prevent corning is to brush the sandpaper off frequently by rubbing the sandpaper on a terry cloth towel or even better is a fuzzy synthetic bath mat that I use for a cushion under the guitar. A microfiber cloth will also work.

If you clean the sandpaper frequently, when the debris is still in the form of a dust, you can prevent the formation of the corns. All it takes is a couple of strokes on the towel/rug and the sandpaper will be clean. So I take about 3 or 4 strokes on the workpiece then a couple on the towel without changing my grip. It has become a routine for me.

[Mike Conner]

Thank you Marshall and Barry for the details! I had read your prior posts regarding the finishes and sanding and plan on apply all the recommendations you have so generously provided. Methods usually evolve with experience both positive and negative, so it really helps to have the details of your present practice.

I'll play around with some spruce, walnut and curly maple scraps to get some insight.

Even though I have a good HVLP turbine system that I have used on furniture for many years, I don't think this system is guitar-worthy. I've used good quality foam brushes and will start there.

With the other waterborne finishes, eg. poly on furniture and EnduroVar, I've been adding a very few drops of Transtint Honey Amber to warm up the appearance with very good results. Walnut gets an ebony grain filler, sanded and then followed by Transtint Medium Brown to move the color away from gray. Curly Red Maple gets Transtint Dark Vintage Maple sanded back to accent the figure, then some Honey Amber. Probably more than you needed to know

I'll post back here once I have some results to report. Probably be a month or two from now.
Thanks again!
//mike

[Bob Ionta]

My experience with original Endurovar was different from yours - even that stuff has a strong odor, to me. I built a roomful of floor-to-ceiling cabinets and finished it all with Endurovar (original). I pre-finished most of the parts in the shop and let them outgas for at least 3-4 weeks before assembly in the room. After installation I left all doors open and kept air circulating in the room and we still had to wait about 2 months before we could put clothing in the cabinets. I finished 1 guitar with it (solid body electric) and did not like it enough to continue using it. Have not bothered to try Endurovar 2. I've had very good results spraying EM6000 on 2 acoustic guitars and I'm looking forward to using it on some future instruments. I'm very inexperienced with spray finishing and still trying to figure it all out so very good results are probably better than I deserve.