Brazilian rosewood square piano lid

[Michael Rohde]

Hi all,

I'm new here and hope I'm not breaking any forum rules - please let me know the correct approach if I am.

I have organized a group here in Olympia, Washington that collects free pianos and dismantles them for the materials and components. We recently collected an 1860s era square piano that was being given away. Since it was still functioning as a piano we tried to find a restorer, collector, museum, etc. that might be interested in giving it a new home but were unsuccessful even when we offered to give it away.

I am not a wood expert by any means. The lid appears to be brazilian rosewood planks (not veneer). The dimensions of the lid are 38" x 75" x 3/4" and in excellent condition. We would like to find a buyer for it and are hoping someone here might have suggestions. I'd much prefer that it continue it's existence as musical instruments.

Thanks for any help with this.

Michael Rohde
Presently a member of a group informally known as "3 Geezers Piano Salvage"

[Randy Roberts]

As I assume you know, if the flat surfaces are truly solid Rosewood (which the ink, age of the piano, etc., would suggest) then yes, you could likely find a market for the solid wood on any of several guitar builder sites. Even solid wood of 1 1/2 x 6 x 3/8 would find a home in a guitar as bridges.

But, as much as I, or others would love to get our hands on the wood, and as thoughtful as you are in wanting it to be used in an instrument, even turning it into guitars seems a desecration of what appears to be a beautiful instrument in it's own right. Kind of like turning a repairable Brazilian Rosewood guitar into a ukulele to make use of the wood.

I would hope you could consider a continued a search for a home, rather than a post mortem, especially if there are not cracks in the cast iron plate, etc.

If that is not possible then I'd say you have come to the right place...and if it is indeed solid wood, check back here before cutting it up, dimensions would have a big impact on it ending up as usable for guitars.

Have you tried contacting:

National Music Museum
The University of South Dakota
414 East Clark Street (Corner of E. Clark and Yale Streets)
Vermillion, SD 57069

Main phone: (605) 658-3450
E-mail: nmm@usd.edu

(check them out at their website)

[Michael Rohde]

Randy,

I completely agree that it would be a desecration to dismantle the instrument. As I mentioned we've tried to keep the instrument together as a piano and have consulted piano tuners, national square piano restorers and experts, as well as a number of institutions about finding a place for it to land. I have not heard about the National Music Museum so I will definitely try them.

The instrument does have a number of issues with the action and other that would need to be resolved in order to return it to truly playable condition. Previous work on the action was performed by a piano tuner who had no experience with square pianos or their unique actions and did some terrible damage to delicate parts adding screws and 'work around' spring replacements which resulted in even more damage/destruction of the original parts and function of the action. It also seems they were in the school of piano tuners who find square pianos millstones to their profession. Unfortunately all of the pianists we consulted felt that square pianos were useless as instruments and take up too much valuable real estate to even use them as decorations.

I've done enough instrument building to make parts out of the lid, but it's such a special material that I would be much more comfortable having a knowledgeable, experienced builder make the decisions in order to make the very best use of it if I'm not able to find someone, or an institution, to keep the instrument intact. Perhaps the museum in South Dakota will have suggestions or contacts for folks who would be able to do that. I'll take down this listing until I am able to contact them and try to save the instrument.

Thank you for your thoughtful, respectful and helpful comments and suggestions.

Michael Rohde

[Bob Orr]

Not sure if the top is solid. There appears to be edge banding of crosscut veneers which would be unusual on a solid top. Could very well be wrong but better to double check before you start cutting it up.

[Michael Rohde]

The curved corners of the main case and the direction of the grain indicate that the case is veneered but the lid is indeed solid. I'll need to have someone with more knowledge than I verify the species. Making one more stab at finding a home for it as a piano, but if I can't find one I'll be dismantling it. I hope that isn't necessary...

I appreciate your comment!

[Randy Roberts]

If there is an unobtrusive spot you could sand down through the finish to the wood, if it's BR, it will have a beautiful chocolate odor with a hint of roses to it that I don't believe any similar wood will have.

[Michael Rohde]

Will give it a try. National music Museum is pretty well shut down by covid not to mention their new building opening in 2022. I'll see if I can get a response from them. If not I'll be forced to tear the piano down.

[Clay Schaeffer]

I have a similar square grand piano with a rosewood case. I can almost guarantee that the top is veneered (even if they used matching veneer on the underside). Square Grand pianos are having a resurgence in popularity, and it would be a shame to destroy such a nice old instrument. Piano tuners don't like them because they are awkward to tune and they don't often have the proper tuning hammer (I made a "hammer" by squashing a socket and using a ratchet wrench.
The sound of a square grand is different than the modern concert grand piano, and many find it better for domestic use
Have you contacted these people:
https://antiquepianoshop.com/square-grand-pianos/
If they don't have an interest in it, they may be able to tell you someone who does.
It would make a good restoration project, and you might consider taking it on as a rebuilding project rather than a demolition.

[Michael Rohde]

Thank you Clay,

I am taking you seriously regarding the lid; so far my investigation indicates that it is solid - I am continuing to investigate. I am finding more and more problems; cracked soundboard, damaged and/or destroyed action mechanisms and signs of structural failure so although it is possibly salvageable as an instrument it is looking more and more like it will need someone with considerable resources just to ship it to some person or entity who would be able to assess it, much less fix it.

I haven't just Googled "square pianos" and left it at that. I would have happily transported the instrument to anyone within a reasonable distance who wanted it at my own expense. I spoke with the family who listed the piano and spent several weeks looking for a home for the instrument before we finally went and picked it up. Since then I have been on the phone, the net and spoken with everyone I know about the instrument trying to find a place for it to land in one piece.

The Antique Piano Shop was one of the first places I contacted about the instrument. They had absolutely no interest in it and apparently neither has anyone on their mailing list. I have sent an enquiry to the National Music Museum as suggested by Randy in an earlier comment in this thread and no response as of yet.

I've listened to recordings of square pianos and I personally like the sound. I also like the timbre/sound of medieval and renaissance instruments and their music; I'm not nearly so interested in 'classical' music and find orchestral 'chestnuts' a bit restricted in tonal variation, but that is all a matter of opinion/taste. I'm not a pianist so I can't comment directly on the differences in touch and action. I haven't spoken to one pianist who likes them and yes, all the tuners I know hate them for the reasons you mention. It's a shame that there is so little understanding and interest but there it is. :>(

It's disheartening that so many old uprights are ending up in the landfill and/or up a chimney. In 5 to 10 years I suspect it will be difficult to find households that have an acoustic piano. My group has been saving some of the materials and components from the landfill/chimney fate. Like recycling anything it is a lot of work, but rewarding when it succeeds. I just sent samples of some of our woods to one of the mountain dulcimer sites that has a forum for those building, or are interested in building, dulcimers and other folk instruments. They seem to be pleased with the materials.

I was designing and building hammered dulcimers in the 80s and would have killed for the soundboard that we are getting from uprights. Many of the pianos we're getting have been listed for free for 4-6 months and are sometimes within days - or hours - of the landfill.

Sorry to go on and on - I appreciate your comments and suggestions and I thank you for your interest!

Take care,

Michael

[Barry Daniels]

Michael, I respect your sincere efforts to find a home for this vintage instrument. Unfortunately, people are less and less interested in "antiques" and many of them are losing value and will end up in the landfill. It is sad, but I don't think there is anything we can do about that other than to hold onto what we can.

[Michael Rohde]

Thanks Barry. I can only hope that these materials can continue as musical instruments whenever possible, We can only do what we can do and then move on. Stay healthy.

[Clay Schaeffer]

A cabinet shop I worked in took on a project to turn an antique spinet piano into a desk. This is something that is commonly done. It preserves the casework at the expense of the piano. I have also heard of people converting old pianos into bars. If you can't save the piano, you can perhaps save the case.
If you have some close up pictures of the top where it transitions to the lip of the edge at various places, that might give us a better idea if it is in fact solid wood. A solid rosewood top would be extremely heavy, and veneered work was more highly regarded than solid planking, but stranger things have happened.

[Clay Schaeffer]

One last thought - you could put the piano on eBay with a low starting bid and no reserve (local pick up). Craig's list and Facebook marketplace might be other resources. Someone might be interested in restoring it to playing condition. There are amateur harpsicord makers. Rebuilding an old piano wouldn't be more difficult than building a harpsicord.

[Michael Rohde]

Hi Clay,

I appreciate your concern and suggestions regarding the instrument. I have considered turning it into a desk or other furniture but I have several volunteers waiting to continue our mission. I've spent almost 2 months trying to do the right thing and the universe has not been cooperating. I have been turning down uprights to dismantle (which sends them to the landfill) and, unfortunately, I'm probably going to have to accept that I am up to my butt in alligators and that my original intention was to drain the swamp...

I looked at the transition of the top to the lip of the edge as soon as I was in the same room with it, especially where the top continues into the end grain of the planks. The grain pattern turns into the end grain logically and consistently.

The lid weighs a ton and is a problem when it has to be shifted around in our shop in order to dismantle the pianos we are supposed to be salvaging. I've spent a lot of time and energy trying to find a home of any sort for the instrument/case with no takers (or interest) on any account. Unfortunately the instrument is taking up too much real estate in the shop for us to do our salvaging work effectively and I'm always worried about damaging it. I repeat that the instrument has had considerable damage to the action, soundboard and main structural elements which will require parts to be remanufactured and the hardware sourced, redesigned, replaced, etc.

If it sounds like I'm making excuses maybe I am, but only after giving it my best effort. :>(

It's a terrible shame.

Michael

[Barry Daniels]

Can you post some better photos of the top? Face on, and close ups of end grain blending into top or back?

[Michael Rohde]

Hi Barry,

I'll post additional photos of the top to the transition to the end grain in the next day or two. Thanks for your interest. I'm starting to dismantle today and it's kind of sad.

Michael

[Clay Schaeffer]

One reason violins live so long is they are very portable.
Good luck with your project.
Years ago I dismantled a dead upright. Aside from some ivory keytops and second rate spruce in the soundboard, I couldn't find much usable wood. I decided it was more trouble than it was worth. I'd rather spend the time I have left on the planet putting instruments together rather than taking them apart.

[Michael Rohde]

Always good to be portable. The materials we're pulling out of the uprights work for building folk instruments like mountain dulcimers, hammered dulcimers, etc. The soundboard isn't thick/wide enough to resaw book matched guitar tops; most customers want the book match look although sonically it's not critical. The back posts are often solid wood larger than a true 2x4 about 42" long. We get about 5 or 6 posts out of a piano for use as turning stock and they are large enough for guitar necks. Yeah, it's a lot of work but it keeps me out of most kinds of trouble. :>)

Thanks again for your comments and suggestions!

[Michael Rohde]

Clay, Barry, Randy and Bob,

Thanks for your interest and input in my square piano dilemma. I have found a home for the piano, finally. As several of you had suggested the lid was not solid planks. The veneer artist who made the lid did an amazing job of lining up grain directions, etc. Investigation of a crack in a corner of the lid suggested that the veneer was laid over what appeared to be walnut. I thank you all for keeping me focused on my erroneous plank theory - I've learned a lot in a lot of ways.

Michael

[Bob Orr]

Glad to hear it has found a new home.