Effect of volume and tone control on top of acoustic archtop

[Brian Evans]

Has anyone evaluated the effect on the purely acoustic tone of an archtop, kind of a before and after deal, from installing volume and tone pots mounted a-la ES-175 in the top of a guitar? Pickup will be floating, but there is an esthetic impact from the tone controls on the lower bout that speaks of an era that appeals to me. Drilling holes in the top of an acoustic archtop doesn't appeal all that much, hence the angst... I've done finger-rest mounted, but I personally don't like playing guitars with finger-rests, I have other ideas, but the visual of that kind of tone control equipped guitar is strangely entrancing...

Brian

[Barry Daniels]

Haven't tested it but I certainly believe that any unnecessary mass on the soundboard will effect the volume and tone on the acoustic side. I use slide pots mounted under a floating pickguard to prevent this problem. But if you don't like pickguards you don't have many other options. Do you really need a tone control?

[Randolph Rhett]

I have no idea how much it might affect the acoustic tone. That said...

I understand the esthetic question. I love the look of those mid fifties L5's or or D'Angelico New Yorkers. The thing I've discovered is that they are not really acoustic instruments. It is incredibly frustrating, as I personally am not interested in an electric guitar. I wanted an ACOUSTIC guitar that SOUNDED like Wes Montgomery, Kenny Burrell, Jim Hall, etc. Problem is those guys weren't playing acoustic guitars.

I've had the opportunity to play a modern L5. These are NOT cheap guitars. However, acoustically they don't SOUND like what we think of as archtop guitars. It was dead as an acoustic and clunky as an electric. And yet players rhapsodize about them.

So I have spent the last five years, or so, trying to develop an acoustic guitar that sounded like an archtop without being plugged in. In my experience, the top has to be incredibly light to even begin to approach those tones as an acoustic instrument. I couldn't even get there with spruce, so I had to go into uncharted waters. I think I've gotten pretty close. And I don't have any controls or pickups attached to the top. After all the effort I went into finding a super light soundboard, I wasn't going to add controls.

But it doesn't look like a L5CES.

And there is the second rub. The people who buy arch tops are really looking for electric guitars. There is a forum dedicated to "jazz" guitar. 90% of the forum is devoted to Gibson fan-boy love. They talk about looking for a guitar that "thunks" out rather than having clear tone. They discuss the merits of a laminate top over a carved spruce top because it is less "active". Beautiful handmade acoustic arch tops are poo-pooed because they don't sound dead and flat the way a Gibson 175 does.

The irony is that you don't need an expensive archtop to have a good electric guitar. There are a number of threads on how the Telecaster is a great jazz guitar. No disrespect to a Telecaster, but I can make one in a weekend. It takes me months to hand craft an archtop. In fact, there is a very informative Youtube by a great jazz player named Tim Learch where he plays four guitars through the same amp/recording equipment and challenges the listener to identify the archtop from the semi from the Tele. I couldn't tell the difference. Judging from the comments, neither could anyone else.

So I think the reality is that if you are looking for a good acoustic tone, I wouldn't be adding mass to the top in the way of controls. If you make a truly acoustic archtop, you won't have the same thing as those instruments. If you want a faithful replica of those 1950's instrument, don't worry too much about the acoustic sound. Those aren't really acoustic instruments anyway. Add controls, put in a pickup or two, add a center block, or even make it out of plywood. It would all be period correct and probably would get you an instrument that you might be more likely to sell, if you were so inclined.

[Barry Daniels]

Well said, Randolph.

[Mike Conner]

Brian,
I have similar concerns about how mounted pots may the affect on the acoustic tone or volume. My solution has been to use Shatten thumbwheels hidden inside the bass f hole.

Randolph.
As you say, especially the jazz community has a distinct focus on a thunky tonality, but there are some who appreciate a decent acoustic tone. After all the effort to maximize the acoustic tone in my latest 16" archtop build, I still designed it to include a full size humbucker surface mounted at the neck position. The pickup rests on the upper legs of the X braces and I think this area is less acoustically active. It seems to have turned out that way - I set it up in the white and played it a week or so, and after finishing and final assembly I don't hear a noticeable change in the tone or volume. Both the acoustic and electric pickups sound really good.

Brian, I hope this helps. My guess is the pots are not a big factor, and if you like the look, go for it.
//mike

[Brian Evans]

So much to think about, ahhh.... One thing is a couple of holes in the top. There will already be great honking holes called F-holes, so what's the diff? Mass. I can test for mass with modeling clay equal to the mass of the knobs/pots, and see what happens. Aesthetic. I want to create visual interest, so hiding the controls isn't the point (although it sure is on other builds, I totally get that). I am evolving this instrument towards "steam punk meets Jetsons", but that is subject to change. I have a design in mind that puts the controls on the tailpiece, and brings the tail piece well forward as part of the visual impact. I am looking at working with metal as well as wood in that respect. A little bit of billet milled, polished, chromed bling never hurt anyone...

I sure get the "jazz guitar vs great guitar" dilemma. My two most impactful guitarists on my personal playing are Ed Bickert and Lorne Lofsky, both Toronto based, and Ed played one guitar for the last 40 years of his career, a Telecaster, and Lorne mostly played an Ibanez Strat copy, although he had other guitars (I bought a custom made 7 string Tele copy from him once). Joe Pass played great guitars in the studio, and recorded some of his greatest solo albums on classical guitars, but when I saw him in a club he had his ES-175 (in the days before the internet and when those albums were current, there were great debates about how he got that great acoustic tone from his ES-175...).