Identification help... Old archtop

[Chris Richards]

Hi,

Hope someone can shed some light on the origins of this archtop... A friend of mine has owned it for over 25 years and it came to him pretty much in the poor state that it's in now. It's intriguing since it is obviously very old and has a inlayed pearl Gibson logo on the headstock, there isn't much I can say about it other than it has a carved top and back and solid sides (not ply), the tuners look like old Klusons but have more like a Roman numeral engraving down the centre maybe MXCI MD? They're quite rusty... There also looks to be "Made in the USA" stamped under the finish where a serial number would normally be and between the low and high E tuners there's a serial number (running lengthwise) 1853....Like I say it's obviously quite old I would say that it isn't a Gibson as I can't find anything like it using internet searches. It actually plays very well...And does have some quality features. Hope someone can help.

[Michael Lewis]

Some clarification of details might help. First, a straight on pics of the headstock (front and back), so there is no foreshortening of the image. A good shot of the heel both from the side and straight on from the back, a side view of the headstock break angle with good resolution, and a shot of the fingerboard extension from the neck/body joint.

Also, take a mirror and look around inside for any ink stamped numbers on neck block, on the sides, underside of the top.

Looking at the guitar from my computer screen I can't say it isn't a Gibson.

[Chris Richards]

Hi Michael..

Thank you for replying.... Here's some further photographs, The side shot of the headstock shows that it's tapered. Over all it is in poor condition, the back has started to come away from the sides for a good length around the tail block, the guitar intrigues me quite a bit as the current owner has had it for 25 years and done nothing at all to it and I can't see why someone 25 years ago would have wanted to fake an old Gibson. I'm sure that a few parts are probably not original but for the most it looks un touched.

The owner has asked me if I could restore it but before I do anything I would really like to know its origins and its worth before deciding on a plan of action... The guitar plays very nicely and has quite a "V" profile neck, I had a similar Henry L Mason archtop, which I believe were made by Gibson and the necks are a similar profile although the Henry was fatter due to no truss rod.

One of the photos shows the number between the high and low E tuners very clearly. Anyhow I hope these other pictures help to reveal the identity.

[Chris Richards]

These photos didn't get added with the last post.....

[Michael Lewis]

Since I don't have the guitar in my hands for my eyes to see, to poke about for numbers inside, etc. I will venture from this side of the computer screen that you have an old Gibson that has seen some water damage and less than professional finish work. I have not seen a number stamped in that position on any guitar. Gibson didn't stamp serial numbers on the back of the headstock until 1961 or so, and not in that position. Certainly the headstock looks like vintage Gibson from 30s or early 40s.

Take a good look inside for any ink stamped numbers, maybe faded. Around the later 40s there were sometimes instruments with no numbers. At this point I think it incumbent upon you to seek better verification. Go buy a copy of Spann's Guide to Gibson (Amazon link at the bottom of this page!) for a great resource in identifying older Gibson instruments.

[Patrick Hanna]

I couldn't tell you the model nor the age, but I accept it as a genuine Gibson. Man, it looks like it has been used as a canoe paddle. The bass E tuning machine appears to have a real wonky alignment, too--not to mention those flat head phillips screws holding it on there. This poor old guitar has seen some mistreatment, for sure. Please come back and tell us what you find in the way of other numbers, markings, etc., and anything else pertinent to the project. I do hope you resurrect it. Whether the instrument is worth it in dollars I couldn't say, but I like seeing old arch tops brought back. If it plays well now, just imaging how much nicer it'll be with the back glued back down, etc.

[Chris Richards]

Thank you Patrick,

Yes I couldn't believe how it played with the way it looks!... And even with the back as it is it does sound pretty good, It's strange how guitars turn up, this guy just approached me in the local pub and we started talking guitars then at a later date bought this guitar in and asked me to take a look... being far from an expert on acoustics, especially archtops I had my doubts whether it was a genuine Gibson but on the other hand I couldn't see why such a guitar (with its history) would be faked, the neck has a lovely profile with quite a distinct "V". The trouble is the guy who owns it I really don't think is prepared to spend any money on it, I would love to repair it but the last thing I want is another "charity job" I've got too many other projects on the go and I've done enough jobs for the price of a few beers! And this certainly deserves the best attention, so I guess that it may be one that gets away, lets hope he looks after it and gets it repaired at a later date. I'll keep everyone posted if I get asked to rebuild it.....

[Patrick Hanna]

I certainly can't blame you for turning down a "charity" job. I hope the guy is prepared to spend some money on it. I would love to come across one like that some time. I'd love the challenge of repairing it, but I'd only do it for myself.

[Michael Lewis]

Long road ahead if you are going to fix this one. Make a nice body form to hold the sides accurately, and remove the back for access to the inside. Certain to need at least some linings replaced. Maybe use the back as a pattern for a new one. Hard to tell with only pics on the computer, it might need less than it looks like from here, but more likely to need more than initial assessment.

[Chris Richards]

Hi All,

Thanks for all the advice... It would be nice to do a full restoration, as you say take the back off make the necessary repairs. Good advice to make a body mould as the sides are way out of line...I am not usually one for complete restorations but in this case I think it would be the only course of action.

Unfortunately the owner hasn't made any "noises" as to me restoring it, I don't think he'd have the money to do it.... I would like to persuade him as I'd love to do the job, just off the top of my head with a refinish I'm thinking no less than £350. What do you think it would be worth once completed?... I think that's the only way I could persuade him to go for a restoration.

Thanks again for all the advice
Chris

[Patrick Hanna]

Chris, I'm doing my part to keep your thread active because I'd like to see some guesses on a price, too. IF you could pin down the model number, it would be so much easier to find a price range. Have you considered forwarding your pictures to someone like George Gruhn or to Gibson? Someone out there is bound to know what it is. Although the simple bindings, tuners, unbound sound holes, etc., suggest a lower grade model to me, there is still the fact of the solid, carved top and back and the inlayed logo. Those suggest at least the upper end of a "lower range" model. If I were in your position, I think I'd offer to buy the guitar at a "current condition" price and then restore it for myself or for an eventual resale.

[Patrick Hanna]

Chris,
I've been looking at Google search pictures for the last twenty minutes. Possibly a 1930's Gibson L-50? While many have fancier fingerboard inlays, I did find quite a few with dot inlays and very simple appointments, just like the one you've shown us. They all seem to have the pearl inlayed logo. I admit I'm guessing, but it's the best visual match I could find. Do your own Google image search and see what you think about it.

Patrick

[Michael Lewis]

There is no way to predict the price / value until the guitar is restored because so much depends on the quality and accuracy of the work, and it will be some bit less than an original example, so find the model and value range and THEN figure if it would be worth going through it. The guitar should end up in "as original" condition, not re-styled or customized in any way. It will have the most value in original design and trim.

It's pretty easy to bury many many hours in a job like this, and you won't know how many until the job is done, unless you have done several or many similar jobs previously, and it is really easy to underestimate what it will take to get the job done. The time invested will be the most expensive aspect to the restoration.

A complete refinish and structural repairs will most likely push repair costs over $3,000. In it's current condition the guitar is not worth much, and after a very good repair might not be worth enough to cover the cost of the repair. Just sayin'.

Much will depend on your finishing skills, if you can replicate a factory finish or do better you could take it on as an educational experience and charge whatever you and the owner are comfortable with, but if your finishing skills are not yet there I would pass on the job.

[Chris Richards]

Firstly thanks to everyone for their help and guidance. I'm pretty sure that the "bottom line" would be that I certainly wouldn't make any money from rebuilding the guitar... The ideal option would probably be to buy it and restore it for myself, that way I'd gain the experience, wouldn't be worried about the time it takes and fit in other jobs around it.

I have about 10 years experience restoring and building guitars, admittedly mainly solid body electrics but I have made one archtop so I kinda know what to expect, I'm very familiar with vintage finishes so don't have any worries about that aspect. I guess I'll get straight to the point with the guy and make him an offer, what would you guys think of £300-£400 ($500- $600)?

Here's a picture of the archtop I finished about 6 months ago....

[Patrick Hanna]

Hey, Chris,
I think I remember your guitar--at least I remember a similar green arch top. Have you posted this one here previously? It's a real eye-pooper.

I still don't know how to value the repair OR an outright purchase price for the old Gibson. I agree with Michael that it isn't worth much in its current condition. For a purchase, I wouldn't offer much. I'd go so far as to ask the guy what he wants for it. If he asks an unreasonable price, I'd counter with something in hopes of being lucky.

Beyond that, I think you'll just have to shop around some of the online auctions and vintage guitar dealers and see what they are asking for similar Gibsons in restored condition. I don't know how else to get a handle on the finished value of the instrument.

I hope you can get a positive ID on the model. I still think it looks a lot like some of the older L-50s that I saw online yesterday. They seem to vary in their ornamentation, depending on when they were built. See my response above. I could not find that particular tailpiece on any L-50, but I saw it on photos of higher end models. That's probably another detailed that varied over the years.

Patrick

[Chris Richards]

Hi Patrick,

Thanks for all your help in identifying the guitar.....I'm not really after a "bargain" archtop and I'm afraid whatever I'll offer the guy he'll think that I'm trying to make a fast buck, I think that I might just say to him if he's thinking of selling it then I've got £300 on the table. It's just annoying that currently it's in the hands of someone who really doesn't know what he has.....A bit like some of the classic car guys who'd rather hang on to some rusting wreck sitting in their garden for years on end until it's just a pile of iron ore rather than move it on to someone who will make something of it. Hopefully something will come of it.

Yes I did post the green archtop some while ago, I still haven't ironed out the few problems I had with it, I think that a new tailpiece will be in order....eventually!

Thanks again...

[Andrew Berry]

I have an old L-50 that has an arched back and top and back seem to be carved. I did a search on that and came across a post from somewhere that said that Gibson sometimes ran out of the cheaper tops and backs and would just throw what they had around onto the guitars in order to keep up with demand. I sure feel lucky since the guitar sounds great. Mine does not have a stamp on the back of the headstock, though.

[William C. McCoy]

Appears that this guitar possibly would have been intended for Export.
IIRC, Gibson was known to stamp "MADE IN THE USA" on their Export instruments, and "MADE IN USA" on instruments intended for Domestic use.
I think I learned that on the forum sometime prior to 2002, could have been late 90's... If I'm wrong, please enlighten me.

[Chris Richards]

Well... The long'ish story is at an end, in the end I did restore this old archtop, The owner was a real gent and when he saw the finished article he paid me significantly more than I asked as he more than delighted with the result..

It did turn in to quite a mission but I'm really glad that I took it on. Firstly I made a mold to pull the sides back into shape, replace the linings on the back and refit the back, I then continued to refinish the guitar but the whole thing decided to keep moving so I left it for a good few months and had to end up replacing a long section of the sides around the back of the guitar... Then I refinished the refinish! and it turned out pretty good....

I was mindful that I was working to a budget and to be honest I wanted to use as much of the original guitar as possible so even if parts weren't perfect, such as the original binding, it still went back on the guitar. It's far from a perfect finish but then again I couldn't sand off the staining on the wood, the refinish is in cellulose which I don't think is what was on there originally... Hope I haven't made anyone "cringe" with what I've done, I'm not that experienced with archtops.

I used a modern bridge, I do have the original which I put somewhere "safe"...I'll be giving that back to the owner when I can find that "safe" place!....One thing about this guitar is that it plays fantastic with a super action and a lovely profile neck and it does sound really nice.

[Michael Lewis]

Good on ya, lad. By the way,nitro should be the proper material for most Gibsons after the mid 20s. If you found no ink stamped numbers inside I would tend to think the guitar is from the mid to later 40s.