target em6000 buffing problems

[Mike Ryan]

Hello,
I have been using the em6000 for a while and suddenly I just can't get it to buff out. I use 12-15 coats on this back I am trying to buff out without success.
I have deep scratches which I never had before. It actually looks good until strong light at a low angle then everything shows up.
Same wet sanding technique.
Micromesh with murphy's oil soap as lubricant.
Rub out to a good slurry usually starting at 1900 or 2400 and going up to 12000.
I just plain can't get the scratches out. I have tried going over and over it starting over but no luck. Also, there is some cloudiness of the final buffed finish.
I tried to mcguiar's swirl X , helps a little not much.
I am afraid I am going to be sanding through if I go over and over it.
Nothing makes much difference right now and I have been using this stuff for years.
anybody got any ideas on this.

I will take some photos later and post them.

[Dave Stewart]

couple of things that occur...
If you're starting your sanding at 1900, I'm not surprised it's not removing scratches... think you should start lightly but much lower (600?). I used to go 600 up to 2000
Try mineral spirits instead of water/Murphy's. (I used the latter with Ultima, but people said water wasn't good on EM6000)

[Chuck Tweedy]

I think you guys are talking in two different grit-size numbering systems.
MicroMesh has it's own system.
According to THIS, 1800 Micromesh = 600 CAMI

[Mike Ryan]

I have been reading that em6000 doesn't like wet sanding with water. Could try mineral spirits or mineral oil I guess. It's kind of weird because I tried the 5 inch MM disks on a ro sander and got a very regular scratch patter but stopped at 3200 and went to the hand stuff and seems like the scratches came after I went to the hand sanding - both with water. Rather anecdotal tho.

[Randy Roberts]

What else have you used the Micromesh on?
Could you have contaminants embedded in it ?

[Mike Ryan]

the Last time was a brand new pack of the small sheets with the rubber block.
I tried mineral spirits (kind of messy) today and obviously less scratches.
Have been using beall system for buffing on my shopshmith and has been perfect before but I wonder if the tripoli is scratching. I have some brand new wheels and am going to try some menzerna stick compound on a new wheel, the fine.
Would Have been better if I did not have cataracts done last year since now I see everything.
weird thing is I tried it on an old cured test block with em6000 with mineral oil and mm and it was very close to perfect.
I only see minimal scratches at a very low angle and I have to turn the guitar back and forth to see them at all.

[Barry Daniels]

Tripoli is way too coarse.

[Mike Ryan]

Trying some menzerna fine today if it comes. I have had success with tripoli on bare wood like bridges and the usl likes tripoli better. It is Clearer and clearer that the tripoli scratches em6000. Usl was different in many ways.

[Gordon Bellerose]

It's kinda funny that you have posted this, at this time. I've been struggling with the very same issue on one of my builds. Can't get rid of the scratches. I use the foam polishing pads from stewmac.
Up to now the EM6000 has always sanded and buffed out beautifully. It seems as though the last can I opened for the last guitar, is the one I'm having trouble with.
I've been using the same technique as others.
12 coats of clear
Start wet sanding with 600 grit Wet sandpaper, them 1000, 1500, to 2000.
Finally buff with medium polishing compound, and then use swirl remover.

I have now re-sprayed this guitar 3 times, and quite frankly am getting a bit frustrated.

[David King]

Have any of you EM6000 users considered switching to General Finishes Endurovar clear gloss? I've been really impressed by the hardness and the fact that it is pretty much resistant to both alcohol and acetone after it cures. the clarity is pretty good and the amber cast looks a lot more natural than the blueish haze you sometimes see with the other WB products.

[Bob Gramann]

Do the coats burn into each other? Will touch ups burn in? I have been really happy with the EM 6000. I use P800 paper dry followed by LMI's fine cut polish followed by Stew Mac's swirl remover. It helps to have bad eyes when finishing.

[David King]

Bob,
Burn in is going to depend on your schedule. If you let it sit too long it most definitely won't. My apprentice just sprayed his bass in the yard over a two hour stretch on a particularly warm and dry day. He sanded that evening and buffed the next morning. Granted he wasn't filling grain completely and sanding way back but I see no traces of witness lines anywhere and the gloss came very easily compared to polyester.
I let a brush dry by accident a few months ago and I had to soak it in acetone for a week before I could break it up and comb it out.
If you are expecting it to behave exactly like lacquer then it's probably not your first choice. I like it because it wets the wood pretty evenly but doesn't darken it too much.

[Mike Ryan]

I have good new to report on the finishing front.
EM6000 is looking a lot better. Feel like a total Dolt for not realizing how hash tripoli is BUT the Menzerna fine and medium are great ( rather expensive tho) . They are predictable and don't damage finishes in a blink of an eye like tripoli. I even can flatten out the tripoli damage if it is not too bad. I finally can "buff it out" regarding some scratches. New could do that before. I also was able to scrape down a drip I found when buffed up with a utility blade and just buff it back to the high gloss. I need that kind of flexibility.
Wow, what a gloss I have now. Still not perfect but really really good.
I get tired of wet sanding over and over to remove damage caused by buffing but no more of that now.

[Joel Nowland]

First off, give up the wet sanding. It's old technology.

Dry sanding abrasives are soooooooo much better. Wet sanding is like using an Apple-1 computer from the 80s rather than the present day I-Mac.

use either 3M 216U Gold 800 grit or Carborundum Red 800 grit to a 95% level then final sand with 1200 grit 3M 260L or Carborundum Red 1200 grit and then right to the medium and fine buffing wheels. Then glazing compound.

15 plus years ago a guy who builds mandolins introduced me to dry sanding abrasives and I never looked back. Try it once and your wet or dry papers with gather dust.

Joel

[Mike Ryan]

Thanks for the tip.