MIMF

I have quite a bit of western red cedar from a used woodfired hot tub that I would like to recycle and use as soundboards for the steel string guitars that I build. The problem is I would need to join three pieces to make a guitar soundboard instead of the usual two pieces. Has anyone ever made a soundboard using more than two pieces. I realize the look of the front would not be as visually appealing but my western red cedar has good tap tone and I think it would make a nice sounding guitar and would like to try one and see. I am planning to do that and just wondered if there were pitfalls to be avoided when joining 3 pieces instead of two. Thanks for any help you can offer.

It's all good, but it will look goofy.... Better to make a 4 piece top, which will have a join at the centerline; it will look better, and you will retain the always very handy and important centerline from which to reference from.

Hi Everett, I have used four pieces to make a soundboard twice before, and they sounded fine and have held up very well so far. I am making two travel guitars now for the reclaimed materials challenge from pine, and am using four pieces for the soundboards on them. The seams don't show up that much and I like the tap tone of the pine, and hope they will sound good (we will see). Western Red Cedar is a great wood for soundboards but is prone to sheding bridges. The glue holds to the wood , but the wood separates, leaving fibers on the bridge after it comes off. I would use the cedar. I have used cedar on three guitars and loved the tone of each. I would dowell the bridge or make it a bit larger to help it hold on the cedar. There was a discussion on this forum last year about this subject, maybe you can find it. But do use the cedar it has a warm full tone.

Thanks much for your replies. I have plenty of wood so I will use 4 piece and see how it goes. Any ideas about the best glue for the bridge connection?

Patrick DeGreve wrote:Western Red Cedar is a great wood for soundboards but is prone to sheding bridges. The glue holds to the wood , but the wood separates, leaving fibers on the bridge after it comes off.
There was a discussion on this forum last year about this subject, maybe you can find it.

I remember that discussion about redwood. Are you sure that wasn't the same one or was there another about WRC too? I had not heard before about this problem with RWC.

I've had good luck using western red cedar for soundboards. Look for a piece that doesn't have a lot of run out. I like to glue bridges with hot hide glue, but titebond will also work.

I have a nice Lowden in here right now for a repair, and it has this exact problem. A cedar top, and the bridge has sheared clean off taking all wood with it. And it's made worse by the fact that the bridge is a pinless bridge, with not all that large of a footprint.
It's a challenge, and I am not sure how to proceed.

I have to say, a pinless bridge is a terrible choice for a soundboard wood with low shear strength. I would want a pin bridge, possible with a graphite layer between the bridge plate and the sound board. Then I would want a very hard, compression-resistant bridge plate so as much of the string tension was bearing on the plate and the graphite as possible. Then I would try to keep the bridge on the low side so it is being pressed into the soundboard, not pushed up towards the neck.

Yes, I think I'll start a discussion in "repairs" and see what kinds of opinions I get on how to best repair this guitar.

Mark, Either drill and pin the bridge (plus add a good bridge plate), or do the Gibson thing and use a couple tiny bolts covered with pearl dots.

Three piece soundboards are not common of course, but no less than the great French luthier Bartolo Busato used two, three and sometimes four piece tops on his steel string acoustic jazz guitars in the mid 20th century. His guitars where revered in his day and today are highly sought after in the gypsy jazz world, second only to original Selmers and now sell for $10-$15,000. Have a look at some of his guitars at the link below, the second one down for instance, there are others further down:

http://gypsyguitars.com/inventory/makers/busato/best-of

My guess is besides making good use of available material, especially during the war years when materials were scare, Busato may have used three piece tops as means to form his highly arched tops from thin flat pieces. The Busato arch is referred to as a bombé which I'm told translates as a pot belly and that is just what it looks like. I think he heat bent the center piece across the grain at the bridge location and used slightly convex edges to join the sides to induce more curve in the finished top. That way, the braces could be very light as they were not used to induce the curve, only to support the preformed top. Quite impressive, very stiff, very light, VERY LOUD!

So if you build it, you will be in good company. If anyone gives you a hard time about it, tell them about Busato. More here:

http://gypsyguitarfans.com/busato-bio---shops.html

Craig

Craig,

I don't mean to be picky, but as an informational sidelight, the word is bombe, not bombe'.

Best,
Bill

Mark Swanson wrote:I have a nice Lowden in here right now for a repair, and it has this exact problem. A cedar top, and the bridge has sheared clean off taking all wood with it. And it's made worse by the fact that the bridge is a pinless bridge, with not all that large of a footprint.
It's a challenge, and I am not sure how to proceed.

I've had a few of those in, for the same repair! I've also seen cedar topped classical guitars, which of course have a lot less string tension, do the same thing. I just "inlay" as much as possible of slivers / the material still attached to the bridge, back on the soundboard, clean everything as best I can, and re-glue... Haven't had one back yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if one did. I'm not a big fan of cedar for this reason

About 3 piece tops: Many of the most famous Spanish makers, back in the day, used 3-4-5- piece tops, apparently whatever they could get their hands on, as wood suitable for instruments was hard to come by. Some of the tops were also joined in odd ways; not only off-center, but also with angled joints etc. As long as the joints are good, they will hold up fine, but its very unusual to see this now. I also prefer 4-piece tops, if I can't get 2-piece, for all the reasons mentioned

Hi Bill,
I've also seen bombe with the accent aigu as Craig has posted, especially when it refers to furniture, and pronounced "bombay".

Arnt said...

I'm not a big fan of cedar for this reason

But don't let that scare you away from cedar- I love it as a top wood, and it can really sound great. When you use a standard pin bridge, and maybe even give it a little extra footprint it works great. I don't think I have ever had one come off. but the pinless thing is too dependent on the wood to hold together and not shear apart.

Hi Clay,
Yes, I've seen that, too, and I may be mistaken--probably am; ignore my maundering!

Bill,

Hey, how are ya! Good to here from you.

I "thought" bombe in French is a bomb as in explosives and bombé is domed. This was pointed out a forum member last year here when i used bombe for domed. Google Translate seems to agree. That said i see bombe in the Busato context all the time in English, possibly because lack of a "é" on the keyboard. I'm not a French speaker so I could well be wrong.

Craig,
I'm recovering from a bout of "Klepper-itis" <G>. I think the noun bombe refers to a convex swelling or domed shape, and is used to refer to a "bellied" chest of drawers (commode). bombe' would be adjectival, meaning "cambered, bellied or swollen. Thus, a bombe' chest is referred to as a bombe, and the Busato top is a bombe, since it is bombe'. But it's hardly worth mentioning, so forgive my going off on a tangent needlessly.

I've had cedar tops that would not hold a bridge for more than a few months and eventually, I had to replace the entire top, yet other cedar tops will hold a bridge forever.... It's the wood fibers themselves that 'let go". I've not been able to tell one from the other until the bridge lifts, which makes it a gamble.

If I ever have one that does this again, I will try epoxying a spruce veneer to the top, slightly inlaid, with a thin, slow set epoxy, like WEST, which will wick deep into the cedar and possibly hold permanently. The bridge can then be glued the the veneer with HHG or Tiebond, such that if the bridge needs replacement in the future, it will remain a simple task.

I built a cedar topped 12 string two years ago for my sister. It is strung to standard pitch and has an ebony pin bridge that has not budged.