Buying tonewoods online: Any caveats?

[Ciaran Cosgrave]

I am gearing up for my first foray into building guitars. I live in Ireland, and there does not appear to be any tonewood suppliers here. It's seems I'll have to buy online. Are there any pitfalls to buying tonewood online which I should be aware of?

[Trevor Gore]

Are there any pitfalls to buying tonewood online which I should be aware of?

Lots.

Stick with those advertising/sponsoring the forum for starters, if you are buying on line. You might try George if you fancy a trip up north. He may cut you a deal if you've got the gift of the gab.

[John Rice]

Hi Ciaran, I would recommend Alaska Specialty Woods, I have used them since I started and I hav'nt got a bad one yet. Brent will post them over to you no problem, you can have em curly or straight and the quality is always great. Don't go over the top on your first most people don't start with Master grade but work up to it. Madinter are great for B/S sets, Mahogany is a good starting wood as it bends easily and sounds great, and you don't have to pay duty coming from Spain. John

[Simon Magennis]

I mentioned madinter in the other post (as above). They are reliable and will work out a lot cheaper than from the US or even the UK. So far I've returned only two items to them and their was no problem. Both their tops and back and sides are good and they have "practice sets" of sides for bending. If you got for mahogony, go with sapele rather than the Khaya at first as the latter is a bit trickier. They have an offer of 10 top set for 65 Euros at the moment. These are "thirds" which means there will most like be some streaks in them or even a knot but outside the usable are. Well worth thinking about. Sound wise it will be fine. Just it won't look as white and even as more expensive ones. Even if you don't want to use it for the "masterpiece" its a good way of practicing cutting out rosette holes, joining the tops and generally playing around. However, it is most likely perfectly useable for a good instrument too.

Once you get some experience, ebay is not bad. RCtonewoods in the US is good (often mentioned here). Bob sells on the US ebay as "zootman" - sometimes some nice bargains for slightly more unusal wood (canary wood or white oak for example). If you buy on ebay he will let you build up a number of purchases until you have a cost effect box for shipping purposes. (5 or 6 sets). He will also sand down the wood to any thickness you ask which is nice if you want to save a bit of work.

Also on ebay (UK one) look out for people selling sets of wood where it is obvious they started to make guitars as hobby and stopped and are selling off stock. They have often bought top classs wood but never used it. Sometimes there are bargains.

[Ciaran Cosgrave]

Hi Ciaran, I would recommend Alaska Specialty Woods, I have used them since I started and I hav'nt got a bad one yet. Brent will post them over to you no problem, you can have em curly or straight and the quality is always great. Don't go over the top on your first most people don't start with Master grade but work up to it. Madinter are great for B/S sets, Mahogany is a good starting wood as it bends easily and sounds great, and you don't have to pay duty coming from Spain. John

Thanks John. One question: What are B/S sets? Is that back and sides?

[Ciaran Cosgrave]

Great. Thanks Simon.

[Simon Magennis]

b/s or b+s etc = back and sides

Just a slight aside from this thread back to the other one. Don't discard the cheap kit idea just because it is "not doing it right". When I re-discovered my instrument making hobby after having done nothing for 20+ years, I started by doing 4 kits - 2 x classical and 2 x steel string. My logic was as follows. Get a good idea of the sequence of steps. Concentrate on the top and getting the sound right.

Most common problem with both kit and from scratch guitars for new builders (doing it without supervision) is that the tops will be way too thick. One approach to this could be buy a stack of cheap tops (such as the madinter special) and make two or three tops which you thin down as low as you dare, brace them and thin these down to almost destruction. The idea is to get a feel for the strength of the wood and see if your fingers will tell you what is a decent compromise between weight and strength.

I notice in the other thread someone else also made the point about not buying really expensive wood first time round. As time goes by I am using cheaper and cheaper wood and getting better and better results. Remember that when you buy from a reputable source, the key difference between cheap and expensive is appearance for tops, and scarcity value for back and sides.

Worth considering would be a holiday guitar making course. These are generally very good value as you come away with new skills and a guitar that would cost essentially what the course cost. In fact I've seen one of two luthiers who price there courses as if you were buying one of their guitars. I will go on one eventually, but making the time is the problem.

Cumpliano of the book fame does one and there has been at least one Irish guy with him as it is on website.

[Ciaran Cosgrave]

Just a slight aside from this thread back to the other one. Don't discard the cheap kit idea just because it is "not doing it right".

Where do you buy your kits Simon?

Worth considering would be a holiday guitar making course. These are generally very good value as you come away with new skills and a guitar that would cost essentially what the course cost. In fact I've seen one of two luthiers who price there courses as if you were buying one of their guitars. I will go on one eventually, but making the time is the problem.

Yeah, I came across a course in Tuscany. That would be very nice indeed. Not only from the point of view of learning to build a guitar but also the sheer pleasure of feeling some sunlight on my bones. I don't know where you live, but here in Dublin, It has basically been raining for the past 10 months, with only the very,very occasional and short-lived teaser of sunshine! Unfortunately though, no can do, from a finance point of view. Maybe in the future.

[Simon Magennis]

Where do you buy your kits Simon?

All the info in your earlier thread: http://www.mimf.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php ... 984#p18482

I can remember lots of times going down to a beach south of Dublin in the winter. Anytime from Oct to April if you looked out to sea you couldn't say where the horizon was. Sea and sky were a single dark monotone grey.

[Ciaran Cosgrave]

Where do you buy your kits Simon?

All the info in your earlier thread: http://www.mimf.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php ... 984#p18482

I can remember lots of times going down to a beach south of Dublin in the winter. Anytime from Oct to April if you looked out to sea you couldn't say where the horizon was. Sea and sky were a single dark monotone grey.

"No line on the horizon" as Bono would say! (Dangerous thing. Mentioning Bono's name). Yeah, I live very close to Sandymount Strand and I go walking there regularly. I have not seen that line in a long time.

Sorry Simon. I forgot that you went to the trouble of posting all of that info. I was not in the frame of mind to consider kits at the time,but having read your more recent post reinforcing the case in favour of them, I'm thinking of starting with one.

[Trevor Gore]

I can remember lots of times going down to a beach south of Dublin in the winter. Anytime from Oct to April if you looked out to sea you couldn't say where the horizon was. Sea and sky were a single dark monotone grey.

Hmmm. Same problem here, different colour.

[Louie Atienza]

+1 for Alaska Specialty Woods. Even their lower grades, which are very reasonably priced, are very nice.

[Simon Magennis]

"No line on the horizon" as Bono would say! (Dangerous thing. Mentioning Bono's name). Yeah, I live very close to Sandymount Strand and I go walking there regularly. I have not seen that line in a long time.

We used to see Bono on the platform in Bray waiting for the Dart along with some of his mates. He used to live in the Martello tower beside the station. I was thinking of the beach area between Bray and Dalkey. I have also seen that stretch where everything was white. The hills and the beach were covered in snow (thin Irish snow admittedy) and the sea was white from the storm. The only bit that wasn't white was a strip on the beach as each wave rolled back out temporarily. Quite impressive.

I can remember lots of times going down to a beach south of Dublin in the winter. Anytime from Oct to April if you looked out to sea you couldn't say where the horizon was. Sea and sky were a single dark monotone grey.

Hmmm. Same problem here, different colour.

Blue and sunshine? I suppose it gets depressing after a time.

Then again you get bush fires and other nastiness.

[Trevor Gore]

Mostly a blue problem. Occasionally a red problem:

[Ciaran Cosgrave]

Problem?

[Trevor Gore]

Yep. Red, def. a problem.

I prefer the blue problem.

[Simon Magennis]

@Trevor.

Now I sick with envy.

A catamaran! I am desperate to go sailing but Frankfurt is not exactly known for sailing opportunities. Most of the dinghy/hobie places in the the Med don't start up till late April or early May. There are some great sailing yacht offers over the next 2 weeks but over Easter the airfares out of this area are pretty stupid. Everybody is escaping. Good news is that I will be sailing for 2 weeks in Croatia with my wife in May…. counting the minutes to blue sky and water.

[Matthew Lau]

Regarding the original question, the only caveat that I see is that it's a bit more expensive than sourcing wood locally.

Regarding my experiences (mostly US suppliers):
Luthier's Merchantile: Overall, good wood. Good service. A bit corporate and snooty. German owned.
Allied Lutherie: Very expensive. Great wood. Great service. Father and Son operation with great quality control.
Stewmac: convenient. Great for a first kit due to superior documentation. The wood grading isn't quite as nice as Luthier's Merchantile.
Alaska Specialty woods: I just ordered some spruce and alaskan yellow cedar. My friend Gary is a huge fan of these guys, so I'm looking forward to it. So far, great service.
Old World Spruce: John is a great guy who personally oversees the cutting of the wood in Eastern Europe during winter time. Apparently, he's trained by a 96 year old violin maker.
Allen guitars: great for fretboards. Back and sides are pretty decent. No clue about topwood. Brace stock is pretty bad.

Since you're in Ireland:
Madinter: Cheap prices. Likely some of their rosewoods are illegally obtained (hearsay, not confirmed). The 800 gorilla of suppliers in Europe in my estimation.

Have you thought of contacting the Lowden workshop?

You may be able to buy an extra set of wood through them.
If you can talk to George Lowden, you'll have a truly world-class adviser.

Regarding the wood:
- Spend the money on a good soundboard and good brace stock. Euro spruce is probably best and cheapest for you.
- The back and sides can be bought from a local cabinet builder. Get some (3-4mm) veneers of quartersawn wood. There's many of good local woods in your area.
- Neck stock: Mahogany is traditional, but there's lots of great alternatives (check the FAQ). Cherry. Walnut. Maple. Anything stable and stiff.
- Get the fretboard preslotted and pre-dimensioned for your first build.

If this all sounds complicated to you, buy a kit.
I recommend Stewmac or the fully serviced kit from Luthier's Merchantile.

If you do meet up with George, send me a pic!
I'm a huge fan of his guitars.

[Nick Dingle]

Hah, Trevor, I was driving down to Sydney from Byron during that dust storm. Couldn't see for anything, but there wasn't anyone else in the road anyhow....

[Trevor Gore]

I'll bet most people thought I did that on Photoshop, or something. I tell you, I'm still cleaning up that dust. Talk about it getting EVERYWHERE.

As for the blue shot, we headed that way that day because of a bush fire. If the camera had swung through 180 degrees, he'd have got a shot not too dissimilar from the dust shot. Visibility about 30 metres, choking smoke, red, orange and grey-black smoke. Good to be upwind of it all. Never a dull day round here!