Newbie Seeks advice

[Ciaran Cosgrave]

Hello All,

I'm a brand new member and this is my first post. I have decided to learn to build guitars. My primary interest is in acoustic guitars but I will probably get around to other types at some stage. I know nothing and I have a few questions:

1) I live in Dublin, Ireland and there are no luthier courses/classes near enough for me to attend. Is it possible to become a competent amateur luthier by way of books, instructional dvd's etc?

2) What about online courses? Has anyone had any experience of these?

3)My plan is to attempt to build a baritone acoustic guitar as my first project. Am I planning to run before I can walk, so to speak?

Any other info or advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Charlie Schultz]

Hi Ciaran and welcome to the forum!

If you haven't already, check out our new builder's FAQ here: http://www.mimf.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4#p4

In my opinion:
1. Yes
2. I personally have not tried these, so no comment.
3. I don't think so

I'm sure others will be along to offer more advice.

[Ciaran Cosgrave]

Hi Charlie,

Nice to meet you. I'll check out that FAQ link.

Thanks

[Mark Swanson]

I agree with Charlie's opinions here. Start out by making sure you have at least a good basic working understanding of how to work with woodworking tools. Many people spend a lot of money on courses and other ways to learn, thinking that will get them there but it often doesn't. It is mostly your own willingness to learn and give things a try that will get you there, and realize that the answer to any question you might have is out there- start here. A good book and a plan to follow is the best way to start.

[Bryan Bear]

What they said.

Everyone has his/her own ideal way to get started. What works for me may not be the most efficient way to get up to speed for you. Further, I doubt many people were able to know what the best way (for them) to start was until they were already going. The best you can do is pick an approach (be it the ladder, the high dive or wading in from the shallow end) and get started. Either way, I think it is healthy to not expect a perfect first attempt.

Definitely read the FAQ and as many tutorials you can find on the internet. Books are good too. You will end up seeing that there are many different ways to accomplish each task. Here is where you will have to decide exactly when it is time to just get started. You want to have a good foundation of information to plan you attack, but you have to avoid paralysis by analysis. It seems like I see many people post to these fora, who have lurked for years and are now starting their first project. Once you start making shavings all the reading will start to make more sense.

Some people start off with nice materials and a standard plan, spend a years fretting over every step and come out with really really nice first instruments. Some use scrounged materials, wing it and learn as they go. There are plenty of in between approaches too.

[Peter Wilcox]

Don't be afraid to make mistakes, and don't feel bad about them - you're going to make them (everybody does.) Learn from them and move on.

[Doug Shaker]

I can't say what would work for you, but my path has been, so far,
1. Build an acoustic from a kit
2. Build an electric from a book, sticking pretty closely to the instructions of the book
3. Build an acoustic, shamelessly mixing instructions from two books as well as adding other things that I liked from other sources.
After I finish this second acoustic, I plan to design and build an acoustic baritone, shamelessly mixing techniques from a wide variety of sources.

As I build, I often redo things. I can't tell you how many times, with my kit guitar, I applied finish of one type or another too thickly and had to sand the orange-peel texture off before I could go forward again. I try to tell myself that I want to learn to build excellent quality instruments, so I shouldn't feel bad about redoing things to make them better.

[Ciaran Cosgrave]

Thanks for all the advice and encouragement guys. There's plenty of food for thought.

[Adam Savage]

Hi Ciaran,
Im currently on my second home-build (the first is *nearly* finished - just waiting for the tru-oil to dry off before atttaching hardware) upon which i have made a truly embarrassing mistake, but anyway.
I started on electrics because i feel there are fewer critical steps in their construction - a little more wiggle room if you like.
The advice given above is all very sound - especially getting used to working tools and wood.
I suspect you already know/have a couple of books, but if you dont I recommend Cumpiano&Natelson, and both Hisccock books. Benedettos is nice, but not very useful to a beginner.
This forum has been extremely forthcoming in giving help and advice, and i would urge you to take full advantage, but it always helps to know which questions to ask. And these only tend to crop up once you have started. Dont be afraid to make mistakes, but as said above, guitars dont get built by thinking about it alone!
As far as other sources of info - check at the GAL site, O'briens youtube vidz and the ANZLF (Oz lutherie forum with quite a sense of humour). With regards to courses - if you can easily get over to Scotland there is a fabulous guitar-building course run in Ayrshire.
Good luck, and dont forgett to post up some pictures!

Adam

[Patrick DeGreve]

HI Ciaran. Welcome to the forum. Three years ago I started my first guitar using the info I could get from books and this forum. I can tell you that you CAN build a fine guitar without going to a workshop. All the advice you have been given is good. Don't hesitate to jump in. You will make mistakes (we all do), but don't give up, the end result is WELL WORTH IT. There is something magical about hearing your first guitar, and every new guitar you build. Several wood suppliers sell practice sides or orphan sides to practice bending, (it is not as hard as it sounds). Start with a good plan. This site has guitar plans, and you can find plans from the GAL site (luth.org), and several sites online. As far as building an acoustic baritone, I don't know of a specific plan for a baritone, but I just finished an acoustic baritone using a plan for a 6 string dreadnaught and I love it. I used the scale length Taylor used for their GT 8 string baritone (27 inches). This is a short scale for a baritone so there is not much difference on the bracing required. I added 1/8 inch in height to the X brace and that was it. It worked out great, and I love the 8 string baritone. Check out the Taylor GT8 videos online. Other than that, just follow the plans and take your time. Don't be afraid to ask questions. One warning, guitar building is addictive! Once you hear your first guitar, you can't help starting a second, third, etc. This a VERY rewarding activity. Good Luck.

[Bryan Bear]

Patrick made a point that I omitted from my response, but I feel it is important enough to repeat. he said side bending is not as hard as it sounds. Take this message to heart. For me (and many others starting out based on what I have read hear over the years) this was a very intimidating task. I spent a ton of time fretting about this and trying to avoid the issue. Had I spent half that time trying it on the traditional hot pipe I would be much further along.

The same applies to neck carving. You will find yourself frustrated that you can not find a written description that tells you how to carve a neck (other than carve away anything that doesn't look like a neck). It turns out, that really is all there is to it. Get some scrap wood, old 2x4s or similar and carve up some fake necks. You will be amazed at how your brain just takes care of the symetry thing.

[Ciaran Cosgrave]

Hi Ciaran,
Im currently on my second home-build (the first is *nearly* finished - just waiting for the tru-oil to dry off before atttaching hardware) upon which i have made a truly embarrassing mistake, but anyway.
I started on electrics because i feel there are fewer critical steps in their construction - a little more wiggle room if you like.
The advice given above is all very sound - especially getting used to working tools and wood.
I suspect you already know/have a couple of books, but if you dont I recommend Cumpiano&Natelson, and both Hisccock books. Benedettos is nice, but not very useful to a beginner.
This forum has been extremely forthcoming in giving help and advice, and i would urge you to take full advantage, but it always helps to know which questions to ask. And these only tend to crop up once you have started. Dont be afraid to make mistakes, but as said above, guitars dont get built by thinking about it alone!
As far as other sources of info - check at the GAL site, O'briens youtube vidz and the ANZLF (Oz lutherie forum with quite a sense of humour). With regards to courses - if you can easily get over to Scotland there is a fabulous guitar-building course run in Ayrshire.
Good luck, and dont forgett to post up some pictures!

Adam

Thanks Adam for all your advice info and encouragement. I'll check out those books and vids. I'll do a google search for that guitar-building course in Ayrshire. I've never been to Scotland and I've been wanting to go for some time now, so who knows.

[Ciaran Cosgrave]

HI Ciaran. Welcome to the forum. Three years ago I started my first guitar using the info I could get from books and this forum. I can tell you that you CAN build a fine guitar without going to a workshop. All the advice you have been given is good. Don't hesitate to jump in. You will make mistakes (we all do), but don't give up, the end result is WELL WORTH IT. There is something magical about hearing your first guitar, and every new guitar you build. Several wood suppliers sell practice sides or orphan sides to practice bending, (it is not as hard as it sounds). Start with a good plan. This site has guitar plans, and you can find plans from the GAL site (luth.org), and several sites online. As far as building an acoustic baritone, I don't know of a specific plan for a baritone, but I just finished an acoustic baritone using a plan for a 6 string dreadnaught and I love it. I used the scale length Taylor used for their GT 8 string baritone (27 inches). This is a short scale for a baritone so there is not much difference on the bracing required. I added 1/8 inch in height to the X brace and that was it. It worked out great, and I love the 8 string baritone. Check out the Taylor GT8 videos online. Other than that, just follow the plans and take your time. Don't be afraid to ask questions. One warning, guitar building is addictive! Once you hear your first guitar, you can't help starting a second, third, etc. This a VERY rewarding activity. Good Luck.

Yeah, I have not even started to make my first guitar yet but I am already excited by the prospect of playing and hearing a guitar of my own creation. That's why I feel I've had a bit of an epiphany with the idea of building my own guitars. Hardly a day has gone by since I got my first guitar 20 years ago ,that I have not had the absolute need to pick one up and play. I also love to look at them. They can be beautiful things. I love to make things and working with wood. It's perfect! I'm familiar with the Taylor Gt-8. What a lovely instrument. Me wants!
Thanks for the info and encouragement.

[Ciaran Cosgrave]

Patrick made a point that I omitted from my response, but I feel it is important enough to repeat. he said side bending is not as hard as it sounds. Take this message to heart. For me (and many others starting out based on what I have read hear over the years) this was a very intimidating task. I spent a ton of time fretting about this and trying to avoid the issue. Had I spent half that time trying it on the traditional hot pipe I would be much further along.

The same applies to neck carving. You will find yourself frustrated that you can not find a written description that tells you how to carve a neck (other than carve away anything that doesn't look like a neck). It turns out, that really is all there is to it. Get some scrap wood, old 2x4s or similar and carve up some fake necks. You will be amazed at how your brain just takes care of the symetry thing.

I only ordered my first books on the subject last night so I've really no idea of any part of the process of making a guitar. I'm blissfully unaware, for now, of the process of side bending. I've bent wood before by boiling it until it becomes bendable and bending it in a jig. I presume this not how side bending is done?

That's really interesting what you said about carving necks. I've been thinking about guitars in the last couple of days and trying to figure out how the various parts are achieved. I figured the neck had to be carved but I imagined it to be a very precise process using some technique unknown to me. I never would have thought it was so intuitive. I like intuitive, so that's one part of the process which is already less intimidating for me. Thanks for the suggestion of carving some practice dummy necks. I'll act on that one straight away.

[Simon Magennis]

All good advice above.

If I recall correctly Derrick Nelson is or used to be in the Marley Park craft centre. If he is still there is might be worth asking if he knows of any opportunities around Dublin.

I think kits are quite good. They give an insight into the sequence of construction.

For electric kit just search on ebay. There lots available and they are pretty cheap. In my view you can't go wrong with one. No matter what the outcome you will learn a lot about the assembly and finish of an electric instrument. There is even on ebay seller of kits basen Dublin or Bray.
http://www.ebay.ie/sch/i.html?_sacat=0& ... _PrefLoc=1 Over the years there have been a bunch of discussions here about the pros and cons of particular electric guitar kit makers. However for a beginner, I'm not sure it makes much of a differance anyway.

For a really cheap classical guitar kit you can try these folks. I haven't used this particular one - I got two from "Madinter" some years ago but they haven't stocked either classical or acoustic "serviced kits" for three years or more although they are still on the website.
http://www.renwks.com/products/guitar-clas.htm If you consider this, then go with the rosewood version which has a proper rosette and not a decal like the mahogony.

One of the major suppliers of tonewood to both amateurs and professionals in Europe is http://www.madinter.com. Their "professional kits" are very good. Basically is a box full of all the wood and other materials you need to do a classical guitar. They have two fundamental types. One with a pre-carved neck and one with just neck blanks. I built one from kit with a pre-carved neck. It turned out very well.
http://www.madinter.com/index.php/for-c ... /kits.html. They are very good value. They even include some low end gotoh tuners in the kit.

Moving one to acoustics StewMac is an extremely well known supplier in the US: They supply some really top class services kits for Martin style Dreadnaughts and Triple O style acoustics. I have build one of each with good results. I would recommend against the Dreadnaught unless you are really in to country and western picking. Its was too big for playing comfortably as a finger picker.

StewMacs kits have a great video with them and the precision of pieces is fantastic. Really really excellent. However, by the time you get a kit to Ireland it will have close to doubled the US price between shipping and VAT and will come in close to 600 Euros. My recommendation here would be the Triple O with a bolt on neck nad probably the mahogony rather than the rosewood. http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Kits/Acoust ... _Kits.html

If you went with a StewMac kit what you could do is get back and sides from madinter and use the StewMac as model as you go along. Sapele and spruce would be good.
http://www.madinter.com/index.php/catal ... egory/603/
http://www.madinter.com/index.php/for-a ... apele.html
They have all the other stuff you would need too. They also do some "practice wood" which is very cheap and good for practicing bending.

Good luck with the project.

[John Rice]

Hi Ciaran, I live just down the road in Wicklow and have been building guitars for a few years now. All the advice that the guys have given you so far is spot on as always. The first thing I did when I decided to build a guitar was buy a book and what a book it was and still is as I still use it as a reference.The book or (bible ) as I call it is William Cumpiano's Guitar Building Tradition and Technology, you don't need to buy plans or anything as he shows you how to set out a guitar from scratch and a 4 year old could carve a neck following his instructions, I kid you not. I'm glad I never bought a kit, I think the best way is to dive straight in and start making sawdust and as the guys said it is addictive. So good luck and if your ever in my town feel free to drop in. John

[Ciaran Cosgrave]

Hi Ciaran, I live just down the road in Wicklow and have been building guitars for a few years now. All the advice that the guys have given you so far is spot on as always. The first thing I did when I decided to build a guitar was buy a book and what a book it was and still is as I still use it as a reference.The book or (bible ) as I call it is William Cumpiano's Guitar Building Tradition and Technology, you don't need to buy plans or anything as he shows you how to set out a guitar from scratch and a 4 year old could carve a neck following his instructions, I kid you not. I'm glad I never bought a kit, I think the best way is to dive straight in and start making sawdust and as the guys said it is addictive. So good luck and if your ever in my town feel free to drop in. John

Hi John,

I ordered two books last night and that book was one of them. I'm sure it's a great book and all, but I'm also sure that's one particularly capable child you've got there. My youngest is about to turn 5, and you've given me an idea. She's very precise and practical. I might just see if she shows an interest. I thought about the kit thing and decided against it for the exact same reasons as you. My instinct with these things is always to dive in.

[Randy Roberts]

Ciaran,

If it should start looking intimidating, just remember that it is just a series of individual little steps. It's a long series of individual little steps, but still it's just one thing at a time until you finally string it up.

It sounds like you've got the right attitude to do this and enjoy it a lot. and remember the forum is always here.

[Trevor Gore]

You will find yourself frustrated that you can not find a written description that tells you how to carve a neck

Well, I can think of at least two; Jim Williams' book and the obvious one! Both will tell you how to carve to a particular shape of your choice, not just any neck shape.

As others have said, side bending (and lining, binding and purfling bending) is easier than you might think, but there is only one way to get a feel for it.

If there is one thing to worry about (if you like to worry) worry about how to get the neck angle right. Most books are woeful in explaining this and some are just plain wrong. If you complete your first guitar with a good understanding of how the whole neck angle thing works, you've done well.

[Bryan Bear]

I stand corrected.