General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

[Jason Rodgers]

Remind us how you're applying?

[David King]

I was doing three coats an hour to my trim this summer when I was working out doors on a hot dry day. That included light sanding between coats. It does sand nicely but you have to be very conscious not to dry brush the surface if you are brushing it on. Get it on evenly but on the heavy side in one pass and move on. It's much easier when you can see what you are doing.

[Chuck Tweedy]

Hey Guys ...
Jason, right now I'm just folding a strip of paper towel into tiny pad and putting it on as thick as I can without puddles. It is not easy to get an even coat with a paper pad, but even still it is working.
As you say David, sanding is easy - almost too easy - it makes me question the toughness of this stuff. But it is fresh so I expect that if it can be used as a floor finis I just need to wait.

So I level sanded my test swatches, and I'll wait a week (as per the Stew-Mac schedule), then huff out my buffer and see how these buff up.

[Michael Lewis]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned using foam brushes for this. For brushed finishes they are "the bomb", and just toss them after use. I don't know about with the water based finish, but with oil based it is nearly impossible to wash them well enough to use them again. But the results with the foam brush compared to an expensive 'varnish' brush the foam one wins.

[Chuck Tweedy]

Hey Michael - Both SM and the info online from General talk about foam brushes.
I've not used foam brushes - ever - that I remember, so I can't comment. Not judging there - just never used them.
I'm planning on spraying this stuff, so I'm just assuming that it will be better than dragging it around with a paper towel strip (as I'm doing now or tests).

I plan on spraying one seal coat of shellac, so at that time I was planning on shooting a test piece with sprayed Endurovar to see how it goes. The plan is to use spruce cutoffs - because I think that will be the easies substrate to see if Endurovar looks as good as I need it to.

[Peter Wilcox]

Excuse my confusion. It seems the original post was about this, https://generalfinishes.com/retail-prod ... lYYdr8Xt8E , the stuff SM sells, and then the topic switched to Endurovar, https://generalfinishes.com/retail-prod ... lYW_b8Xt8E . Does anybody know if they interchangeable in application and appearance for guitar finishing (except for the ambering?)

[Chuck Tweedy]

Hey Peter, in researching this I've found that the High Performance (HP) finish (that SM sells) is an acrylic/polyurethane blend. Endurovar is just polyurethane.
I do not know if they are compatible in the same application (i.e. I don't know if you can put one over the other)
In appearance, the HP is totally clear ("water white"), and Enduro is amber. Though, with TransTints I'm sure I could have any color I want.
According to what I've read, they will both buff to a gloss finish (my goal)
In general, the Endurovar is marketed as tough, so I expect it is more durable - not really a huge differentiator with an instrument.

I'm trying out Endurovar based on Mr. King and Mr. Lewis' recommendations. So far it does act a lot like an oil varnish (once dry).

[Michael Lewis]

All the finish manufacturers have technical people on staff to answer questions regarding their products, and they can help give suggestions and instructions for use. They can be very helpful, you just have to call them.

"Tougher" means to me more flexible. Do you want flexible or hard?

[Chuck Tweedy]

"Tougher" means to me more flexible. Do you want flexible or hard?

Michael, if it is hard enough to buff to a gloss surface, then I think it is hard enough to be a guitar finish.
If it is "tough" and flexible, then I think it is good for longevity of the finish, and to allow for the plates to vibrate and move with humidity without cracking/crazing.

I can say: the finish that has dripped onto my workbench from my test applications shatters when I scrape it off. If it were too gummy for a guitar, I would expect the drips to peel off like "stickers" (I wax my bench) - but they don't - they shatter.
Empirical evidence.

[Clay Schaeffer]

Hi Chuck,
Have you ever tried buffing out sprayed shellac?

[Chuck Tweedy]

Clay - I've never really done a full spray-wetsand-buff schedule with shellac. I have always applied the base-coat by straying, and FP over that (non-purist FP).
So I can't answer any questions on that.

[Jason Rodgers]

Hi Chuck,
Have you ever tried buffing out sprayed shellac?

C'mon, Clay, you've been around here long enough to know of Chuck's deviant shellac practices!

[Clay Schaeffer]

Jason,
I didn't know if maybe Chuck had gone completely over to the dark side!

[Chuck Tweedy]

i hate you people, i have no idea why i still hang around here

[Randy Roberts]

" I have always applied the base-coat by straying, and FP over that (non-purist FP)."

Straying...a telling slip of the tongue...The first step in redemption is probably to recognize your sins. Perhaps the gods of the Lac bugs will undo the curse on your shoulder and you can return to the fold.

[Chuck Tweedy]

step 1: i have a problem
11 more to go

happy roberts?!?

[Chuck Tweedy]

By the way, I've got about a week on the test pieces of Enduraovar. The most encouraging thing is that the sanded finish (to 1200) feels like velvet! I LOVE the feel of matte sanded varnish (real varnish like Rockhgard), and this stuff feels the same. Kind of amazing.
I'll be buffing this stuff out - maybe tonight.
I'm going to do one more test by spraying some soundboard cutoffs - if that goes well, then I'm going with this stuff. I just can't face going back to the fumes of NC lacquer.

[David King]

Wishing you luck Mr Tweedy. The stuff is tough to buff. Start with rouge, then the white. If it gets too hot it will just peel up so take your time until you know the limits.

[Chuck Tweedy]

Start with rouge, then the white.

Hmmmmmmmm.
I have Menzerna Medium and Fine - Are those equivalent??

[Michael Lewis]

What I would like to know is how well it holds up to sweaty arms and bodies in the warm Summer weather. Otherwise all the specs and data I have read make it sound like a great finish for guitars and mandolins.