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Re: First Build - Building from a kit vs building from Scratch?
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:26 pm
by Matthew Lau
I'll add a fourth option:
Try to find a local MIMFer!
Also, I hear George Lowden is a couple hours away.
He's one of my favorite builders.
Either way--whatever gets you to build!
Re: First Build - Building from a kit vs building from Scratch?
Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:35 pm
by Simon Magennis
A StewMac serviced kit delivered to Ireland and including VAT (there should be no customs fees afaik) and adding in reasonable tuners will come in at about 550 euros. (round numbers 340 euros+50 for tuners+45 shipping +20% vat). They are very good. High precision and a nice dvd. The only other materials you will need is whatever you want to use for finish. You might also want to switch the binding to wood binding instead of plastic and/or add herringbone purfling. I did two of these about 6-7 years ago.
I also did two much cheaper classical kits from Madinter. They were very good value. Madinter seems to still have one of their steel string kits in stock although the classicals are long gone. It would be under 200 to ireland including shipping and vat (109 for the kit - laminated back and sides - plus shipping and vat). You could scarcely go wrong with that. It even includes cheap tuners. The kits are not as high precision as the StewMacs but the pretax price is one third and the shipping is less. There is no instructional video.
Madinter also do what they call "professional kits" - these are also very good value. It is simply a box of wood with the option of a semi-finished neck. I got one of these about 5-6 years ago and though it was very nice. It made a pretty good guitar.
So my re-start in instrument making was four serviced kits. I think it was very useful. As others have commented, it gives you an idea about the sequence of the build which is no bad thing.
Re: First Build - Building from a kit vs building from Scratch?
Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:07 am
by Simon Magennis
Ciaran Cosgrave wrote: It seems to me that, with kits, so much of the work is already done and for the cost of buying a kit there is very little return in terms of knowledge gained.
Learning the sequence of steps with known good components is a valuable lesson in itself. The cheap madinter kit mentioned in my last post will produce a decent guitar. Fitting the neck joint on that kit will probably be as much work as doing your own.
You get started very quickly and you have a real instrument in your hands quickly. Your first from scratch build will be a lot quicker than it would have been if you didn't have that practice in assembly.
Ciaran Cosgrave wrote: I'd be interested in people's thoughts on the merits / demerits of starting with a kit,especially from those who have done so. I'd also like to get my head around exactly which of the skills involved in building from scratch can be learned from a kit build and which cannot.
An unserviced kit is simply the bits in a box. Saving? You don't have to order everything individually. Building skills required: same as if you bought everything separate. (Unless you take the option of a pre-formed neck).
Serviced kits: Depends a bit on the kit and how you use it. Main skills not learned: bending sides. With some kits: making the neck, marking out and cutting fret slots. There is nothing to stop you tuning up the top a bit more and adjusting the bracing if you want. But on the first build you probably wouldn't do that so add: thicknessing top, back and sides to the list of skills not learned. That's about it.
Someone who systematically assembled a sequence of "identical" kits making some adjustments with increased experience would learn a huge amount about voicing instruments in a much shorter period of time that someone doing everything from scratch. I am really sad that Madinter don't have their cheap classical kits anymore as I would love to buy (say) half a dozen and assemble them as quickly as possible with my current knowledge. I reckon I would learn a huge amount in a very short period.
Everyone has their own way of learning however.
Just do it!
Re: First Build - Building from a kit vs building from Scratch?
Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:37 pm
by Gilbert Fredrickson
Madinter of Ol' Espana has first and second quality kits. I would go with the second quality. Use the Cumpiano book and follow it to the letter. Late, when you begin to channel the spirit of Antonio Torres, you may want the first quality materials. Then you may begin to label your guitars "1A." StewMac has a serviced kit, while LMII offers kits with various service options. I use the LMII Kit Wizard and also order from StewMac and others. Go for the raw wood blanks and live life on the edge!
Re: First Build - Building from a kit vs building from Scratch?
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:29 am
by Rick Hall
Doug Shaker wrote:OK, let's think about this. What is a kit doing? It is selecting materials for you, doing some of the work, and, perhaps, giving you a definitive methodology for getting the job done.
Most important part is giving you a definitive methodology. You haven't ever done this before. You don't know if you prefer guitars with the bridges close to the soundhole or close to the middle of the lower bout. You don't have an informed you should install the frets before or after the fretboard is glued to the neck. You don't know what kind of bracing system you like. There are all kinds of points during the construction where you will be faced with several valid ways of proceeding and you will need to make a decision. It will take forever if you don't have some way of deciding what way to do things. In my opinion, you either need
1) a teacher
2) a book you are willing to follow slavishly, or
3) a kit with good instructions
Besides instructions, the other thing a kit does is do some of the work for you. My first guitar was a Stewart-MacDonald kit. The sides were bent and the fretboard was slotted. It came with a cardboard mold for assembly. I didn't have to build or buy a mold, I didn't have to buy a fretboard slotting system, and I didn't have to buy any kind of side-bending equipment. This meant that my first guitar was considerably cheaper to build than it would have been if I had bought all that stuff.
My first guitar isn't great. It's over-built and, to get the sound I like, I have to play it pretty loud to drive all that extra weight. Some day, I should probably trim the braces, sand the top down some and refinish the top with shellac instead of the water-based finish that I used. Even so, I think it is about as good as a $1000 guitar in a shop.
I have only built one guitar and it was through our local Woodcraft store that had a guitar building class. A local guitar maker, Mike Mears of Windy Hill Guitar Works, brought in all of the pieces required for the build. He had the sides bent, the top joined, sound-hole cut, rosette done, the neck roughly shaped, and the fingerboard slotted. Even though all of this was done for us he actually showed us and talked through the processes of getting these efforts completed. He even brought in a bending iron for us to try it on some scrap wood to feel how the wood releases for the bend to happen. I am now trying to put together a kit through LMII for my second build, but will try to do the sides and top myself on this one. Still will get the fingerboard slotted and a roughly shaped neck. I will tackle a little more each time.
I would suggest to find someone in your area that offers a guitar making class to take so you can actually see hands-on demonstrations of the techniques and have someone there to ask questions when you have them. This is much better than trying to read the instructions and try to figure it out yourself. Also, if the instructor doesn't start off with discussions on the different woods and how they are cut for a guitar (quarter sawn and the different types of woods for tonal quality) then I would try to find someone else. It is always good to learn the foundations of the craft. In any case the more guitar making books that you can read ahead of time to see the different techniques of other luthiers the better for you.
Re: First Build - Building from a kit vs building from Scratch?
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:55 pm
by Lance Lawson
One kit will tell you just about everything you'll need to know. It will show you what the finished parts are supposed to look like. I learned from a builder and much of it was seeing the parts as ready to be fitted. Buy a kit. You don't have to build it just seek to reproduce what you see in the kit. Once you can make a guitar the challenge is to vary the components to work with various sizes. Every size requires minor variances in thickness and braces etc.
Re: First Build - Building from a kit vs building from Scratch?
Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:50 am
by Ron Zentz
I'm a little late to this post but with a little vacation time I'm finally browsing the forum a bit. I'm working slowly on my #2 and will be finishing soon. I built my #1 from scratch and playing it for the first time was so satisfying that I must recommend the same. Now, I have to mention that I've been a woodworker for 40 years since high school and I went to Charles Fox's week-long class in Portland before building #1. I also used two building books and all kinds of info from the MIMF and other web sites. Too much info really. If you enjoy "the process" of things like I do, then definitely build from scratch. The most fun for me was investigating and figuring out how I would tackle each step because there is never one way to do things. Building many tools, jigs and fixtures along the way was great fun too. The only things I purchased pre-made were the tuning machines, fretboard (slotted and radiused) and the binding/purfling. I made everything else from raw stock. I cut the side/back plates to rough thickness on my band saw from wood I had on-hand (walnut). I bought cedar shingles from the scrap bin at the hardware store to make a 4-piece book-matched top. Everything worked out much better than I imagined and I love the sound of the guitar. No matter how you build yours, I hope it turns out to be your favorite!
Re: First Build - Building from a kit vs building from Scratch?
Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:41 pm
by Doug Shaker
Ciaran,
Did you start a guitar? How is it going?
Re: First Build - Building from a kit vs building from Scratch?
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:52 pm
by Michael Murray
Great Question. I was going to write a more in-depth reply, but see that Bob Gramann has the same experience I had. My first was also a Martin Kit, and I'm very happy that's how I started for the points he mentions. I still consider myself a beginner - so my advise is based on fresh experience!