General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

[Mike Conner]

Chuck,
That's fantastic. Thanks for taking the time to create the document. I have added links to it in my Journal.
//mike

[Mike Conner]

An update from my prior posts on the polishing process for Enduro-Var:

After waiting another 2 weeks or so (about 28 - 30 days total cure), and letting a couple of binding edge touchups cure, I used 2000 grit paper to blend in a couple of blemishes, and then polished by hand the entire body and neck again with the polishing compound. The gloss has really come up to near the ideal wet look. Of course, that also makes it easier to see the remaining flaws in the finish. The blending and polishing was fairly reliable to do even though the finish has cured about a month and is pretty hard at this point.

Overall, I am really happy with this final result, flaws and all.

[Chuck Tweedy]

Quick update:
Randy Roberts and I have been in communication about Enduro-Var regarding a project that he has been working on. He can update us on that if he sees this and has the time to comment.
The thing I didn't know - in talking with Randy - is if this stuff will stick to de-wax shellac.
Almost everything does, so it seemed like a no-brainer - EXCEPT - the manufacturer specifically instructs to apply to bare wood. They do say that you can apply over a sealcoat of 1lb shellac IF you sand back to a bare wood surface. They seem to imply that it is super risky though.
So I decided to test over shellac - a complete film of shellac - NOT sanded to bare wood.

First, I have a rosewood board that I use to test FP on, and it has years of shellac built up on it, and that finish is over a year old. I skuffed the surface with P800, and applied 2 coats of Enduro-Var. I've abused that finish by clamping it with a C-clamp (to simulate tuning machine compression - a classic point of finish delamination), and I've jabbed and scraped and rubbed/burnished it with a blunt point, and I've tried to lift it with a chisel at the edge.
NO PROBLEMS - finish is solid - no de-lam and it looks really good to

Second, I applied several different treatments to a piece of walnut (penetrating oil, oil stain, and waxy dark shellac) - then covered each of those with 2 sealcoats of blonde shellac - then 2 coats of Enduro-Var.
Then I abused it (pictured below).
NO PROBLEMS - same as above - all good.

I still want to do a piece of spruce and hit that with a pick real hard - I've seen a few instruments where that delaminated the poly finish pretty bad.

[Jason Rodgers]

Nice work. This is tough stuff.

Question: is the penetrating oil you used like tung oil, or something similar? And you put shellac over that? I thought oil was supposed to always be on top. But here you used the shellac like a reset layer before applying the E-V?

[Craig Bumgarner]

An industry test for adhesion is to cut the finish with a sharp knife in a cross hatch pattern about 1" square and then apply tape to the surface and rip it off. If it passes that, plus your tests above, it is probably as good as it gets.

Last week, I applied E-V Satin to a scrap of spruce that I had the day before applied a seal coat of un-waxed shellac on one side and Seal Lac on the other. I just did the cross hatch test on both, no failures at all.

[Chuck Tweedy]

The oil is Liberon Finishing Oil. I put that and the oil stain on (2 coats), let that dry for a day. Then sanded back - which pretty much took it to a wood surface. Neither the stain nor the Liberon have much "body" to them. Then blonde shellac over that.
The oil was kind of a "worst case" thing - not necessarily a realistic finish schedule.
The "Nothing" section to the left is the control (left of the dato) - the majority of the piece has shellac as a barrier under the E-V.

[Bryan Bear]

Chuck, how does the "depth" or "pop" compare in person between Enduro-var on bare wood to Enduro-var over shellac? I know it is probably difficult to ascribe value judgements on something like this as far as which looks better. . . I'd just like to hear your thoughts; your picture is nice but it is hard to beat an in person opinion. . .

[Craig Bumgarner]

Bryan, I'm sure Chuck will chime in, but on my test pieces of spruce mentioned above, I'd say clarity was very good for both over bare and over shellac. Over bare, the spruce turned out a little darker and over the shellac'd pieces a little lighter and a bit more uniform. These difference were very small, sufficiently so that the only reason I would think to shellac first is to reduce moisture absorption from the E-V. The difference in appearance is negligible. On spruce at least.

[David King]

Bryan, that would be my concern as well and I suspect it's one reason why General Finishes recommends against putting anything else under the enduro-var.
I've been doing my own tests here on bare curly red maple. I have to say that I'm not seeing the clarity and popping with e-v over the maple that I'm getting with thin CA, West systems 105/207 coating epoxy or my personal favorite, moisture cured polyurethane floor varnish. Part of my issue is that I don't care for the added amber tone in the e-v which looks to me more like piss yellow than amber. I should state that I'm brushing on the e-v, not spraying it. I'm level sanding between coats but not doing anything to the final coat, just leaving it with it's natural surface gloss which isn't terribly good. It would probably clear up a little with a 2000 cut and compound buffing. I'm also down to the bottom of my e-v gallon so it's undoubtedly a little thicker than a fresh pot and may not be wetting the wood as effectively.

[Chuck Tweedy]

Hey Guys,
The main purpose of the test was to evaluate adhesion - but I was also very interested in how the different undercoats looked.
The blonde shellac adds a small boost to the "pop" to the look, but it is very difficult to tell. The best "pop" on that piece is the oiled section. It has much more chatoyance than any other stripe in the test. Next best is the seedlac - which has 4 coats of shellac under the E-V - maybe that has an effect.
This is satin E-V by the way. I got a pint for free, and decided to try it out.

I said before, and it bears repeating, that E-V on END_GRAIN needs a shellac barrier coat. The water in the finish closes up the endgrain, and nothing gets in. On the guitar that I recently finished, I had to re-do the neck heel and the end of the headstock to fix the ugly blush.
After stripping and using a shellac seal-coat, the mahogany looked MUCH better - even in straight grained areas. So I expected some improvement with walnut. But it did not really do much. I really want to try on spruce, both for adhesion and for the difference in looks.

[Jason Rodgers]

Bryan, that would be my concern as well and I suspect it's one reason why General Finishes recommends against putting anything else under the enduro-var.
I've been doing my own tests here on bare curly red maple. I have to say that I'm not seeing the clarity and popping with e-v over the maple that I'm getting with thin CA, West systems 105/207 coating epoxy or my personal favorite, moisture cured polyurethane floor varnish. Part of my issue is that I don't care for the added amber tone in the e-v which looks to me more like piss yellow than amber. I should state that I'm brushing on the e-v, not spraying it. I'm level sanding between coats but not doing anything to the final coat, just leaving it with it's natural surface gloss which isn't terribly good. It would probably clear up a little with a 2000 cut and compound buffing. I'm also down to the bottom of my e-v gallon so it's undoubtedly a little thicker than a fresh pot and may not be wetting the wood as effectively.

So you think General doesn't advise a seal coat partially because they can't speak for the visual results of their product over various cuts and shades of shellac (or any other type of sealer)?

[Bryan Bear]

Would those of you who have used it be able to compare the "pop" of E-V alone to, say, Shellac or other oil varnish?
Based on Chuck's report here, I am interested in trying this product. Especially so, if it can be applied over shellac sealer. I have only tried water based finish one time and ended up taking it off and using shellac. Part of the reason for that was that the hide glue lines looked bad, I couldn't tell if the product was not building on the glue lines or if the wood around the lines was swelling. The glue lines were invisible in the white and after the water based product was sanded off and refinished with shellac.

[Chuck Tweedy]

it does not look as good as NC lacquer - but nothing that is not horribly toxic does.
Shellac has its charms, that I think we all really like, but it is not nearly as tough as this stuff (not even close).
Directly on wood, long grain, it looks pretty darn good for a waterborne.
To me I still see a refracted blue tint from light bouncing off the surface, and that still really bugs the crap out of me. Nobody else seems to see it, but having sanded and buffed this stuff like crazy for the past month, I've trained my eye to see it, and I can't let it go.

I recommend everyone try it for themselves on test pieces of your favorite wood and make the decision for yourself. I've shared all the data I have on this thread, and I've tried not to be too biased. It is a fine finish. It is easy to use, it looks pretty good, and damn it is tough as nails. Give it a shot, and maybe you'll be as stupid as me and use it on a fine instrument that you hope to sell.

[Chuck Tweedy]

Some pix

[Chuck Tweedy]

This one is a bit washed out, but it does show how the finish really allows rosewood figure to show through. That was a very good thing about using it for this guitar.

[Craig Bumgarner]

Shellac has its charms, that I think we all really like, but it is not nearly as tough as this stuff (not even close).

Agreed, the main problem I've had is a sweaty player can strip the finish off at the contact points in a single hot session. Alternatively however, I've been very pleased with Royal Lac as a sub for traditional. Been using it for close to two years (9 acoustic jazz guitars). Plenty hard, moisture and perspiration resistant, buffs well. I've been applying it in the French polish method. This is a slow method and my finish regime of epoxy grain fill, seal/tie coats of blonde shellac, sprayed tinted shellac for color and the final FP takes almost two weeks off and on, but the results are very good. After two more weeks curing, a light wet sand & buff brings it to a very high gloss. Full cure with Royal Lac is in 30 days, but I find I can wet sand and polish in two weeks, if I wait longer, buffing gets time consuming.

Brushing or spraying Royal Lac to sufficient and then a wet sand and polish might take less man hours but still a lot of calendar time.

Or E-V. Both for the Satin option and for a high gloss polished system that might take less than a month.

[Bryan Bear]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the info. Chuck, that looks great. It sounds like the pros/cons ratio is favorable and who am I kidding, my skill level is well below the drawbacks of any finish. All my flaws will certainly weigh more heavily on the final product than not having 100% the look of nitro. . .

[Mark Swanson]

That looks great Chuck! Really wild.

[Chuck Tweedy]

Thanks Mark - everyone says the figure on the back looks like dogs. woof
Bryan, I think you should get a pint and see what you think. It's fun to play with.
Craig, I really need to try Royal Lac - I didn't even know about it till I was already in the middle of this project - I'm out of the loop obviously.

[Jason Rodgers]

Thanks Mark - everyone says the figure on the back looks like dogs. woof.

Geckos!