Santos Hernandez plans?

[Simon Magennis]

I am aware of only one published H.S. plan - the one from Roy Courtnall (half size in the book, full size from a lot of different suppliers). Is there any other H.S. plan available?

Thanks,

Simon

[Alain Bieber]

Simon,
To my knowledge no good Santos Hernandez plan is currently available, except the one in Courtnall's book, which seems to be a Flamenca. I have seen ( very quickly) a couple of plans in circulation here between "expert hands" (much higher in the hierarchy than mine). I cannot play Wikileaks but the Courtnall plan has something different that I suppose I can underline. The quoted (average) thickness of the top in Courtnall's example (2.1 mm) is markedly inferior, by more or less .3/ .4 mm, to what I remind of classical guitars out of Santos hands in his late carreer, say the thirties. I suppose he followed the general Madrid trend to build a little bit more thickly with time, for classicals I mean. I could not say if this is also true for Flamencas.

[Simon Magennis]

Thanks Alain. Good to know about the thicker tops not that I follow the measurements 100% anyway. I was wondering if anyone had documented the slanted harmonic bar mentioned in the Courtnall book.

[Chuck Tweedy]

Courtnall's example (2.1 mm) is markedly inferior, by more or less .3/ .4 mm

I read that as "Courtnall's example is 0.3-0.4mm too thin". Is that you intention Alain?

[Alain Bieber]

Not exactly Chuck. I just mentioned I saw some classical guitars by S.H. built in the thirties with thicker tops. I think the Courtnall thickness was observed on a Flamenco built earlier.

[Tom Harper]

Sheldon Urlik's book "A Collection of Fine Spanish Guitars", documents 3 Santos Hernandez instruments, two classicals made with Brazilian rosewood, one from 1923 and the other from 1930. The 3rd instrument is a cypress flamenco. It uses a slanting lower harmonic bar and parallel fan braces. The 1930 classical uses the same bracing system. All 3 instruments have a 655 mm scale length. If you have access to the book, you might want to take a look at the other dimensions Urlik provides.

[Ross Gutmeier]

Simon, I'm currently doing a restoration on a 1920's Santos (classical model) and from what I've measured and noted so far, it looks to be an exact version of the 1912 Ramirez he built for Segovia. From what I've come to understand, he didn't change from that design until sometime into the ninetenen thirties. When he left Ramirez in 1918 he took that nicely working design with him. It's a wonderfully old school sonorous guitar, and I can't wait to build of few myself.   You can get the 1912 plans from the GAL. Follow them to spec and you'll have a very nice guitar.

 I've started a blog on the whole process (search my name with Santos Hernandez). The updates will be slow since this job is not part of my regular work. You can check the pictures for general info. 

A few notable measurements: soundboard 2.1mm, sides .055"-.060" (QS Braz), back .078" (center) .082" for about 2" of the parameter.

The only bracing difference I can see was where he tucked the outside ends of the "V" braces up a bit. The top isn't perfectly vertical grain (less cross grain stiffness) so he may have done this to give better bridge end support. Just guessing here, that's a tricky spot to deal with when you have a floppy top. 

[Greg Robinson]

Simon, I'm currently doing a...

Hi Gutmeier,
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[Ross Gutmeier]

Hey Greg, Thank you for correcting this for me. My name is Ross Gutmeier.

[Greg Robinson]

Thanks Ross, your account has been updated.

[Simon Magennis]

@Tom & Ross.

Thanks for that info.

When I add it all up it suggests quite a variety of bracing patterns: 5 & 7 fans (I believe Alain mentioned this in another thread), parallel fans, "Ramirez" style, with and without a sloping harmonic bar.

I will investigate the Urlik book and keep an eye on Ross's blog - the very thin end block is interesting too.

[Tom Harper]

Simon,
Be aware that the Urlik book shows very small drawings of the general bracing pattern - no details about exact angles, lengths, etc. I think it is still a great book. Other dimensions are given such as scale length, body length, widths, depths, neck depths, etc.

Ross, I look forward to following your blog. Thank you for adding the extra work of documenting the restoration on the web.

[David Schramm]

Here is a link to a video of a friend of mine who owns a 1915 Manuel Ramirez. He is doing some restoration. When he took the back off it looked like brand new inside. Quite possible that Santos made this but we'll never know for sure. All braces and pencil marks are original only the cleats for a crack have been added. http://youtu.be/KMwpP1W1Vjs

[Simon Magennis]

Thanks David. I recall watching this video sometime in the past. Glad to have the link again.

I wonder do people who have played both "Santos" guitar and "Ramirez" of approximately the same age hear/see any systematic differences? I guess t here shouldn't be that much.

[Ross Gutmeier]

Thanks for posting the video David. Good stuff. I do see some similarities in the one I'm working on. The pillarettes and the brace above the upper trans bar are exactly the same. I wonder how much of this stuff was Santos and how much was Ramirez spec?