advise for altered approach for helping a first timer

[Bryan Bear]

Hi all, I don't have a specific question here. I'm just interested in thoughts and or discussion to help me think of things I might be forgetting or otherwise failing to consider.

My cousin (actually cousin once removed) is going to start coming to my shop on a semi regular basis to make his own acoustic guitar. He is 16 and has been playing for a couple years. He is interested in hands on stuff so I figured this would be a unique opportunity that many teenagers don't get to say they've done. This will be a couple hours at a time once a week or maybe even less. We both acknowledge that he may be 18 by the time it is finished. This is as much about the time we will spend doing it as it is about a completed guitar.

With that said, I don't want to let this drag on inefficiently or for it to get bogged down in inefficiency and lose its appeal. I'm going to simplify several things. We will not do any really fancy binding/purfling/decorative stuff but still try to make it nice looking and set apart from a random factory built guitar. I want him to be able to be proud of it. I think I will also have him skip HHG and use TB to reduce some of the stress and learning curve.

I am having him use a back and side set that I already jointed and thicknessed, one side is already bent. He will get to experience bending a side on the bender and we will bend the liners and binding on the hot pipe so he can learn that too. Learning to joint and thickness a plate can be done on the spruce.

What other considerations might I think about to keep this project moving.

I'm not sure if I want to tackle French Polish with him.

[Christ Kacoyannakis]

So, I did this with a couple of friends of mine, who wanted to see how Greek bouzoukis are made. The problem was that I have a very small shop, and there was hardly room for me, and my work, and then you add 2 more people, and two more instruments, and it got unwieldy. The other issue was that both friends own very successful restaurants (this was before Covid), and they couldn't come every week, and I was working (at the time) and traveling a lot. I did buy the bowl back body, so that cut down a lot of time, but I should have put more effort into planning, so that we could do one thing, glue it up, and then go right to work on something else. I ended up doing a lot of prep work on the parts, and when they came over, we would just glue something together, after I explained what I had done, and then we sat around talking.

All that being said, Robby O'Brien does a one week build a guitar class, so you might check his site for some kind of schedule of what he does on what days. My feeling is that Robby probably has this down pat, and his shop is probably set up such that, he has all the tools and jigs arranged so that you can just move from one station to another moving things along very quickly. He probably also has it figured out so that while you are waiting for the glue to dry on the top and back, you are working on the neck or fretboard or whatever. Probably pretty simple decoration as far as fretboard markers, binding/purfling, and a standard steel string or classical.

Since one of your sides is bent, I would say have him joint and glue the top and back, and while that is drying, bend that other side. Then he can start working on the neck, especially if he is going to glue it up from a single flat piece or make a three piece neck. Then do the neck and tail block, and glue those in along with the purfling.

Sounds like a fun project, and I hope your relative appreciates your time, effort and talents. You are right, very few people get to see this process - they just go buy a guitar, and think, guitars come from the store.

[Bryan Bear]

Thanks for the response. Some good stuff in there. We will probably start this in a couple months. My plan for the fist meeting is to discuss what he wants to make and decide what woods he wants to use for binding/purfling (including going up the logs for that) and fretboard. We will bend the other side in the bender as the foster thing and do other tasks while it cooks/cools/cooks/cools, and he will make the blocks. Once the side is cool, we should be ready to glue the rim together. I’ll try to plan out more days like that to maximize use of glue up time. Thanks for the help.

[Marshall Dixon]

Have a dimensional plan to work from hanging somewhere easily visible.

Break the work down to the parts/processes: neck, rim, back, top, bindings, finish, etc. List the steps sequentially in basic outline form for each and print it out for immediate reference. That way you could go from one job to another and pick up where you left off.

Sharpening skills are important and used frequently and something he can practice at home on the kitchen knives.

Sounds like a great project!

[Karl Wicklund]

This depends a lot on your cousin, and of course on you. Decide what the end goals are. Is it more important for him to emerge with the beginnings of solid craftsmanship -e.g. sharpening, 4s hand planing - or more important that he can say “Cool, I made this thing!” Or more important that you’re connecting with family.

For what it’s worth, my initial foray into instrument building was a once weekly (more or less) day-long visit with a self-taught old timer. He didn’t run a production shop, and worked on many other projects. My stuff was stored in a corner. On my first project he demonstrated most of the work and handed over pieces to me for final fit. That allowed me to get hands on, but didn’t set me up for much catastrophic failure. The last project we did together was about 80% my work, with him helping me puzzle out unfamiliar procedures.
The biggest benefit of my time with him was gaining the courage to dive in to a new project without an expert at hand.

Let us know how this progresses.

[Bryan Bear]

Good points Marshal. I have an excel worksheet with all of the points in my process listed as well as which other points need to be completed before you can do a step. I really only use it when I am boarded at work. Sometimes I will pull it up and look at which steps I am able to do and come up with a list of goals for the weekend shop time. I think we can use this tool in much the same way to plan out our next session. We can keep in mind gluing time and try to keep the box and neck moving in parallel so there is always a step that can be done.

Karl, I think all of those goals apply to varying degrees. We both know that he won't end up with a visually perfect instrument. What he will end up with is a physical representation of the lesson that you can do things that may seem impossible at first thought. The fact that he is into guitar is the conduit to that lesson.

To your point, I don't want to get too bogged down in learning fine woodworking and all the ins and outs of hand tool use. Rather, the success from this project may inspire further work on that front. Or not, that is up to him. I'll be making a guitar at the same time so I can demonstrate steps but I think it is good advice to get him 80% there and be willing to take over to get something critical right. I will have to fight the urge to take over to avoid every mistake though. I think it will be important for him to decide when to fix a cosmetic issue, when to start over and when to live with it and move on.

[Marshall Dixon]

Making acoustic instruments is a goal directed process involving a lot of self discipline. You can make a good guitar just following a plan without much thought past accurate joinery.

But even if he only makes one guitar, understanding some of the basic principles of sound production I think would be of interest. Maybe you know of Erik Jansson's "Acoustics for Violin and Guitar Makers." I don't have any background in physics but I get the gist. And it's free:

http://www.speech.kth.se/music/acviguit4/part1.pdf

[Bryan Bear]

I’m going to follow his lead on how deep of a dive he wants to take and how ready he is. I’m hoping the process leads to conversations. I don’t want to be giving lectures, I want to be offering answers.

[Peter Wilcox]

This would probably be more involved than you want to be, but If you have the space and the materials, I would build two guitars, one by you and one by him. You do each operation on yours, with him watching/helping, then he does the same on his, with you helping. Monkey see, monkey do, without the third step we use in medical education - see one, do one, teach one.

Probably not pertinent to your subject, as he probably wants an acoustic, but I would do an electric first, being a lot faster, easier and a more consistent end result. It would teach him the basics of wood working and guitar configuration, and then go on to acoustic if still interested.

[Marshall Dixon]

I’m going to follow his lead on how deep of a dive he wants to take and how ready he is. I’m hoping the process leads to conversations. I don’t want to be giving lectures, I want to be offering answers.

I found that teaching is a learning experience. I'm sure you'll provide a good example. If there is any inclination on his part to understand how wood vibrates, Jannson's work I find very approachable and explained in basic everyday language. It's not necessary to read any of the equations. But you do have to think about the concepts. Sometimes you have to think about them a lot and it may be that he doesn't care. That's something I can't fathom.

[Clay Schaeffer]

Similar to what Peter has suggested, you might try a less ambitious project with him first. Something like a Tenor Uke with a few premade parts might be knocked together in a few sessions and let you gauge his level of interest and how involved he wants to be. You can find necks, fingerboards, bridges and tuners on eBay for a few bucks. You can teach him to bend wood and make a typical uke body, a pineapple shape, or find a couple of cigar boxes depending on his skill and how quickly you want a "first project" to be done. He can learn the basics of woodworking and finishing as well as about scale length, compensation, and the ergonomic considerations of building an instrument, without getting bogged down in a lengthy project. If he successfully completes the uke he may have a better understanding of the commitment it will take to build a guitar, and have a fun little instrument to play.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tenor-21-23-26 ... SwQPtfmjYw
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ivory-Nut-Rose ... SwTS1fNf2e
https://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-Tuning-Pegs ... SwvKBe8G2w

Many years ago did a dulcimer building workshop with my sons' boy scout troop. It took a couple of months of weekly sessions for the dulcimers to be built and finished. Some of the scouts really enjoyed doing it and built same nice instruments and some didn't. All the Scouts wanted to do it initially but some lost interest over time. I think a less drawn out project would have held their interest better and given a better success rate. Although I enjoyed the experience of teaching, I don't believe I was particularly good at it.
A few examples of quick to make cigar box ukes:

[John LaCroix]

If you french polish he might be older than 18 when it is finished You could do what I do, which is to varnish the back and sides and only FP the top.

[Bryan Bear]

Ha! I know what you mean. My biggest concern for FP is that if we are only spending a couple hours per week together it will never get done. If I show him and send him home with what he needs to do it on his own it could be a real mess by the next week. I need to find something he can do without spraying and too much level sanding. I'm thinking maybe tru-oil but it has been more than a decade since I used it. I will need to read some reliable tutorials when we get to that point.

[Darrel Friesen]

If you french polish he might be older than 18 when it is finished You could do what I do, which is to varnish the back and sides and only FP the top.

That could be verging on good old fashioned luthier humor!!

[Karl Wicklund]

Tru-oil would be a pretty solid option. Not hard to apply. And I do like the feel of it.

[Alan Carruth]

Just go the the URL listed and download the .pdf files. You'll need to get part1.pdf through part9.pdf, which are the separate chapters. The last one (iirc) gives a tutorial on download and use of the (free) sound recording, analysis, and editing program 'Wavesurfer'. What used to take $20,000 worth of dedicated equipment can now be done with free software on an obsolete computer.

[Glenn Howland]

Check this book out. It might turn out to be a fantastic teaching aid. I've suggested that it be added to the MIMF Amazon list, but in the meantime --

https://www.amazon.com/Building-Steel-S ... 194&sr=8-1

[Peter Wilcox]

Check this book out. It might turn out to be a fantastic teaching aid. I've suggested that it be added to the MIMF Amazon list, but in the meantime --

https://www.amazon.com/Building-Steel-S ... 194&sr=8-1

And the author's website has tons of useful information that I've used many times:

https://liutaiomottola.com/

[Matthew Lau]

Hey Bryan,

Thanks for starting this thread.
My new neighbor ended up being my high school classmate.
His younger son is into guitars.

Maybe I'll build with him one day.