1920s 'The Veron' Stromberg Voisintte - Bridge Blues

[John Scime]

I like to refurbish old parlor guitars. I've been working on this guitar and off for a quite a while. The top under the bridge is in very rough shape. The bridge that was on it was a martin-style many years ago by the original owner, who wasnt particularly careful. I'm worried that I won't get enough adhesion and the new, period correct pyramid bridge will pop off in future, or that the weakened top under and around the bridge will buckle resulting in failure.

I did manage to remove the busted original bridge plate and will by installing a new maple plate underneath.

Option as I see it are
1. Install bridge with west-systems epoxy to fill voids.
2. Rough half-depth of the top under the bridge and apply a veneer with feathered edges. This will tax my skills!
3. Go with a Martin style bridge for more gluing area.

Thoughts?

[Barry Daniels]

I have dealt with a few bad bridge footprints this year but none were that bad. Let me address the three options you listed.

1) Epoxy would have the benefit of filling voids but it would be irreversible. If it didn't hold you would probably end up having to replace the top.

2) Feather in a patch. Frank Ford on his Frets.com website did this on an old Martin. He installed it from inside the guitar which allowed him to maximize the size of the patch while not leaving any visible evidence on the outside. Very clever repair, but it would require access to the inside by removing the back, and also some crafty chisel work to fit the patch.

3) A Martin style bridge would help but will still be risky due to the rough and missing wood. It also may look out of place on this particular guitar.

I think I would probably recommend option 2 if you think you can pull it off. I will go find a link to the referenced repair.

[Barry Daniels]

Here is the link: http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier ... ore01.html

There is another repair on the website where he repairs a similar issue but without having access to the inside.

[John Scime]

Barry, as always, thanks so much for the detailed response. I think I will pull the back (it's loose in a couple spots anyway), and get this done correctly. Might even convert to xbrace while I'm in there, as I think it will add to the strength of the weakened top, which has a lot of cracks. I did an xbrace conversion on a 1915 Lakeside parlor by Lyon & Healy and the sound of that guitar is out of this world. Thanks again. John

[Barry Daniels]

John, you are most welcome. Please post more photos as you work through this interesting project.

[John Scime]

We'll, I'm certainly not Mr. Ford, but I'm more or less happy with how the patch turned out. I beveled the inside edge and chalked fitted it the best I could, and managed to get a decent glue-up. It is still pretty rough on the top, but certainly a great deal better than before.

I think with the conversion to xbrace, with a nice maple bridge plate, and it should be plenty strong going forward. The top is rather 'spongy' too, so the X will be useful in stiffening things up. And I will decide later if the pre-made, narrow pyramid bridge will work, or if I will build a simpler and wider Gibson L00 style for it to give it a little more glueing area. But that is a decision that can wait until I get the braces and back reinstalled. I'm going to begin that process later today.

[Barry Daniels]

That's looking great, John. I agree that an X-brace would be very helpful. Also, a hard maple bridge plate will go a long way in reinforcing and stiffening the top.

[John Scime]

X-Bracing the 1920s 'The Vernon' parlor by Stromberg-Voisinette.

Back in January, I was ready to x-brace the top of this old parlor guitar. Then I got COVID. But more to the point, I got a little lazy ... Getting back at it, ...

I cut a new X-brace glued it in place this week - it's a bit of a pain installing the X with the sides inplace, but it got done, inspite of the slippery fish glue. Braces were about 9/32 wide, 3/4 tall to begin with before radiusing and carving. The finger braces and tone bar were a little wider as they were made from the original ladder bracing, as was the second transverse brace (instead of a popsickle). I try to resuse as much of the old bracing as I can. Quartered maple bridge plate was about 2.5mm thick and 1 1/8 wide..

Carving the braces was both fun and a pita because of the sides. So I cut down an old Stanley chisel and used my finger plans. The short, sharp chisel was a dream.
I replicated a modified Larrivee bracing pattern I've used before on a rebraced Lakeside parlor of the same vintage. I sold the Larrivee parlor because it didn't sound near as fine as the Lakeside...

Overall, I'm pretty happy with how this major surgery has transpired. The top is stiff, strong, and rings like a bell when tapped! Next Ill glue the back on - not a job I totally enjoy ...

[Barry Daniels]

Looks good.

[Bob Francis]

That looks great John!

[Paul Breen]

I don't think that looks bad enough to cut out a big hole and then patch it back in from the inside, if the interior is not all torn up as well.

I have a 57 D18 in for a bridge replacement, it's as bad, maybe worse. The interior is fine though and so is the existing bridge plate.

Stewmac sells a replica bridge for this period with the correct string spacing. I bought one to try, so I could save some labor making one from scratch. The measurements where pretty much spot on. Hole space, location and saddle location, darn near dead the same. The belly profile, at the inside curves into the wings, was out slightly. The original bridge had been shaved to 1/4" thick and had been off before, more than once from the look of it. I'm rather sure that Resorcinol glue was used. The original owner was a good player but not a good craftsman. It looks like a saw blade was used at some point to get a lifting bridge off(?) and the cuts into the surrounding top also filled with Resorcinol. I told the current owner, a nephew that inherited it from his uncle, that I was not including any work to the exposed damages on the top. Best to leave the finish alone.

The leveling that would be required had me concerned about the new bridge ending up inlaid into the top, not flush. Some day the bridge may have to come off again. I'm in the camp that thinks about stewardship. Do I not worry about the next guy having to dig out an inlaid bridge or do I go the extra and inlay a Spruce shim to keep the bridge level to the adjacent top? It's a bit of fussy work but worth the effort to make it right. The only downside to this is having two glue joints under the bridge. A well done, hot hide glue job should be up to the task. This project had some missing Spruce fills as well, all done with hot hide glue.

The images show the process I used.

Get the bridge where it needs to go and clamp it there.

I use a soldering iron with an exacto blade in it to cut the finish around the bridge footprint. It really helps reduce chipping when tracing the bridge footprint! Old lacquer can be chippy.

Now I start to define the edges of the footprint.

The deeper areas are chiseled out for Spruce fills. Doing this will help keep leveling to a minimum.

[Paul Breen]

Gluing in the Spruce fills.

I need to plug the pin holes. Since I am leaving the bridge plate, I am making the plugs out of Maple. I use a plug cutter, with the grain at a right angle to the plug. Most of the plug gets drilled out with the new pin holes are drilled. If the bridge plate ever needs to come out, whats left of the plugs should just break off, the way I have the grain orientation. The ball ends of the strings will bear against whatever is not drilled out of the pin holes, Spruce would be inappropriate.

[Paul Breen]

I have the footprint leveled but ended up with about a .020" deep footprint. That's not much and you could just go ahead and set the bridge down in there but I decided on adding a shim.

There was some minor chip out in the bridge plate. I filled it with West System Epoxy thickened with Colloidal Silica. Not all epoxy is created equal! I only use West System when I use epoxy. Cures hard as the hubs of Hell and tools/sands well. The Spruce was plugged tight, so the epoxy should only be on the bridge plate. This should hold up against string ball ends.

I bought some un-backed Spruce veneer for use as shims. I have both .0625", 1/16" and .03125, 1/32", a time saver instead of making thin material myself. It's rather fragile to cut and shape, took two tries. I clamped the bridge on it and cut through with a sharp new exacto blade. I thinned the shim to about .023" prior to gluing it in. This saves some of the in place work leveling after gluing.

The Infra Red lamp works great to warm things up and keep it that way, really helps with the working time. White paper is enough to mask areas you don't want to heat up. Infra Red does not heat reflective surfaces.

[Paul Breen]

I use a caul backed on one side with 1/4" cork, sanded smooth. This will force the veneer into any lower uneven spots.

Glued in shim with some minor but fussy leveling yet to do.

The last images show the bridge being installed. Again, the Infra Red light is employed to buy me extra time. The bridge has been dry clamped in advance to nail the clamping strategy. The deck is cleared, clamps laid out in the ready, hot hide glue applied liberally and the bridge clamped up.

Whatever solution you do, only use fresh made hot hide glue. Hope this helps, it's a bit less involved than a Spruce inlay from behind. Good luck with the project!

[Barry Daniels]

Nice job, Paul!

[Paul Breen]

Thanks Barry...

[Paul Breen]

... and John, nice bit of craftsmanship on that old Stromberg (Kay). The tonal improvements should be quite noticeable when your done.

I should read more and more carefully. I didn't look at the name of the poster that did all of the well done work patching and re-bracing. Just skimming the reading, assuming it was another contributor, I posted an alternative method. You've practically got the project done!