sanding sealer

[Sandy Winters]

Please Help!!!

Mohawk has discontinued their Industrial Sanding Sealer (M610-1607) which I have been using for many decades. They have no recommended replacement for it other than their Vinyl Sealer which I use for other applications, but I really don't like it under guitar finishes.

Their Industrial Sanding Sealer was an 'old school' sealer, very high build, very quick dry, and very hard, also slightly amber.

It seems that I remember the original Deft being very similar to old school sanding sealers many decades ago.

Any help greatly appreciated !!!!!!! Thanks

[Barry Daniels]

Deft is anything but hard, in my experience.

What kind of top coat are you using? Ever tried it without the sealer? Just thin out your finish for the first two coats to create an effective sealer. It won't build quite as fast so you might need a couple of additional coats of finish, plus the two you are using for the sealer.

[Clay Schaeffer]

If I am not doing a base coat of epoxy I "self seal" with the same finish as I am using for top coat (as Barry mentioned). Sanding sealers are designed to sand easily, so usually are a little softer than top coat. Self sealing with top coat helps me avoid having too many partial cans of finishing materials laying around the shop.

[Sandy Winters]

Thanks for the replies.

To be clear..I'm looking for a product to replace the 'old school' Mohawk Industrial Sanding Sealer.

[Alan Carruth]

Why replace it when thinned out final finish works as well?

[Sandy Winters]

Sorry Alan, but you're wrong on this topic. Your posts are usually well informed, well thought, and well spoken. I'm assuming that you are just not familiar with the product.

The idea that a "thinned out final finish works as well" as an industrial *sanding* sealer for the same application is just not correct. Certainly thinned out finish works well as a sealer but it is not the same as industrial *sanding* sealer.....very high solids and fast build, formulated specifically to be sanded in 20-30 minutes.

[Alan Carruth]

Since I don't work on an 'industrial' scale, I guess you're right about my lack of information on that level.

[Sandy Winters]

Alan, Do I detect a bit of sarcasm?? I hope not.

The only reason I use the term industrial sanding sealer is because that is the name of the product in the catalog and on the can.

Even though you say you " don't work on an 'industrial' scale" I'm sure you use many industrial products and procedures...table saw?, spray gun?

[Clay Schaeffer]

Here is an extract from an article on sanding sealers, and some of the reasons I don't use them. They do build quickly and sand easily, but also affect the clarity of the finish:

"Sanding sealer. Sanding sealers for lacquer and alkyd varnish contain zinc stearates, a type of soap. The stearates make the finish easy to sand, but they weaken the finish by making it less moisture resistant, less scratch resistant, less plastic so it cracks easier, and they weaken the bond of many finishes."

The longer version:
https://www.popularwoodworking.com/flex ... t-are-they

No sarcasm intended, purely informational. As a retired cabinet maker I'm somewhat familiar with sealers and wood finishing.
Bob Flexner is an authority and has written books on finishing.

[Alan Carruth]

Sandy Winters asked:
"Alan, Do I detect a bit of sarcasm??"

Just a bit; sorry. I actually wanted to post something akin to what Clay did, going into it in some depth in my first post, but simply didn't have the time, and your dismissive reply rubbed me the wrong way. That first post was meant to be helpful.

" Your posts are usually well informed, well thought, and well spoken. I'm assuming that you are just not familiar with the product."

While I'm not familiar with that particular product, I have used things from the Mohawk line before. I've also got a fair amount of experience with a wide range of finishes in general, and some understanding of the whys and wherefores. Sanding sealer is designed as a time saver, but, in my experience, generally comes at a cost to quality, as Clay pointed out. I simply don't see that as a good trade off for a hand maker. We're not making kitchen cabinets here.

If you've read any number of my posts on the subject over the years you'll know that I am, to say the least, skeptical about nitro. Having made some back in high school (imagine!) I know enough about the chemistry that I was not at all surprised to read recently that it's considered 'toxic' by museum conservators. They find that it's actually harmful to other objects in the collection, so that stuff that has celluloid or or nitrocellulose lacquer on it has to be isolated.

Of course, there is no such thing as a 'perfect' finish; one that has all of the desirable properties and no drawbacks, so it's a case of 'picking your poison'. I've been using either French polish or oil-resin varnishes for decades, and put up with the added time and effort involved to get the superior tone, appearance, and stability. Yes, FP wears faster, but it actually becomes more durable over time, where nitro breaks down.

"I'm sure you use many industrial products and procedures...table saw?, spray gun?"

Some; yes: I certainly make good use of routers, would not be without my drill press, and often wonder how people made guitars before the invention of masking tape. However, I own neither a table saw (using a band saw instead) or a spray gun. To each his own.

[Travis Brown]

Please Help!!!

Mohawk has discontinued their Industrial Sanding Sealer (M610-1607) which I have been using for many decades. They have no recommended replacement for it other than their Vinyl Sealer which I use for other applications, but I really don't like it under guitar finishes.

Their Industrial Sanding Sealer was an 'old school' sealer, very high build, very quick dry, and very hard, also slightly amber.

It seems that I remember the original Deft being very similar to old school sanding sealers many decades ago.

Any help greatly appreciated !!!!!!! Thanks

I only use sanding sealers under opaque(ish) topcoats, opting for dewaxed shellac or thinned topcoat for transparent(ish) finishes.

But maybe try Industrial Formulators S1 sealer if you want a super hard, high build base coat. Harder than any sanding sealers I've used (the softness of which is, I think, de facto of their purpose). But I think you'd want to use a UV-resistant top-coat with S1.

As the brand name implies, it "industrial." Which, in my opinion, usually just means the quantity format of a product. "Industrial grade" is sort of meaningless. Anything can be "industrial" if it fits a particular industrial use case.

Paint in a gallon can is formatted for consumers, paint in a five gallon bucket or barrel is industrial?