General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

[Mike Conner]

Brian,
Not sure if this is an option for you, but I bought my Enduro-Var through Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/General-Finishes ... d+urethane

$38 USD, free shipping with Prime.
Hope this helps!
//mike

[Todd Stock]

$83 per gallon at Woodcraft thru 22d of July, and $27 per quart. Usually $97.50 and $31.50...still awfully expensive (3x lacquer), but better than $38/quart IF YOU CAN GET TO A STORE...otherwise, Woodcraft will nick you for $10-$12 for shipping, making the Prime vendor a better bet. Have been shooting necks with the gloss - next one get epoxy fill, based on recommendation from the vendor tech guys and John Greven...way too painful to have to fill with finish on mahogany.

[Brian Evans]

Can't ship internationally is usually why. The other problem is that would cost me $50 in brokerage fees as a hazardous material to get it into Canada. We have our unique challenges, as do we all. I'll try the Minwax, see if it behaves well, and if it doesn't I'll use it up at some point on something.

[Chuck Tweedy]

Todd, are you talking about EV or the MinWax product?

[Todd Stock]

General Finishes Endure-Var, as Mike mentioned.

[Mike Conner]

Thanks Todd,
As you say Woodcraft is a better deal if the store is convenient. For me it's a 1 hour drive there and probably not worth it just to get a quart. Amazon Prime free shipping is a good deal for us, and I almost always have other things I am ordering via Amazon (luthier and household stuff). The Prime membership fee is worth it for my wife and me.

A quart easily did 4 guitars with the foam brush method I am using. Sprayed with my HVLP I am sure it would not do as many due to the usual overspray losses. At my build pace a quart lasts a year or so, and a gallon would age in the container before I would use it all.

So, with my methods a guitar uses about $10 USD worth of Enduro-Var - I can live with that.
//mike

[Randolph Rhett]

For those of you brushing it on, would you consider a YouTube vid? Like Ken I had no luck brushing it on. Went through almost a pint of EV on one guitar trying to sand out ridges and brush marks. I think I need to see how someone does it successfully. I know it's a big ask, but I really would like having a good high gloss finish (other than FP) that doesn't rely on spray equipment.

[Todd Stock]

Prime and StewMax rock...fellow luthier at Raygun Engineering needs one set of clay dot side markers...under $4, but $8 for shipping. Everything else Raygun buys comes thru commercial accounts with other vendors, so I added it on to my last Stewmac order. Done! Same deal with refreshing my shrink wrap...a couple bucks for 60' of 4mm 2x wrap versus paying $6 for a couple feet locally. Prices on Prime get adjusted to cover shipping, but still way cheaper than what most vendors charge for 2-day or overnight.

Foam brushes - specifically the PolyFoam brand - are what I prefer for thin finish application of WB and varnishes. Woodcraft sells them in 10 packs, but cheap online. WB just goes on better with foam than anything else I've used. For solvent varnishes, it's a toss-up between $70 bristle brushes and $0.45 foam brushes as to which generates the better wet edge, but I retired my bristle brushes decades ago to avoid spending the time and money on cleaning and solvents. I shoot my finish coats with a turbine, but the fill coats all go on with a foam brush, and with good technique (don't over brush...keep a wet edge..don't rework), it stays pretty smooth.

[Mike Conner]

Randolph,
So far I have finished 5 instruments with Enduro-Var using a foam brush. My results have definitely improved with each attempt. The key for me is to keep each coat very thin, just enough finish to wet the surface. As Todd says - keep a wet edge and don't overbrush or rework. I am happy with the results, but absolutely must level sand and buff because there are still some brush marks and sags. I have just assumed that these are just part of the process because all of the finishing descriptions I have read (sprayed laquer or other finishes) detail wet sanding and buffing steps. I guess French polish would avoid the sanding and buffing, but not the durability against wear and sweat that the waterbornes offer.

A video would be hard to do because the lighting is critical to show the wet edge, etc. I try to use reflected light and/or adjusting my view while applying the finish. That would be hard to capture with a cell phone while supporting the guitar and brushing the finish . Plus, I am very non-photogenic.
//mike

[Gordon Bellerose]

Can't ship internationally is usually why. The other problem is that would cost me $50 in brokerage fees as a hazardous material to get it into Canada. We have our unique challenges, as do we all. I'll try the Minwax, see if it behaves well, and if it doesn't I'll use it up at some point on something.

Brian. Living in Canada definitely has its challenges finding finishes. With a few exceptions, our VOC laws pretty much exclude any oil or solvent based products.
I have tried 3 or 4 different water base top finishes, and have ended up settling on Britetone. This finish dries water clear, with no bluing or amber tint creeping in. If you want amber, simply mix in a bit of stain. I use SM Colortone stains.
Britetone is available through Wood Essence, out of Saskatoon. A bit pricey at 98 per gallon, plus shipping at around 20 bucks.
The bonus is that it is priced in Canadian dollars, so no 30 percent exchange.

I spray this finish, so I can't speak to brushing.

[Brian Evans]

Gordon, did you try the Minwax Ultimate? It is a cross-linked polyurethane that is supposed to dry clear. I've got a gallon coming so I will at least have a go with it on test pieces.

[Randolph Rhett]

Randolph,
The key for me is to keep each coat very thin, just enough finish to wet the surface. As Todd says - keep a wet edge and don't overbrush or rework. I am happy with the results, but absolutely must level sand and buff because there are still some brush marks and sags.
//mike

Well I certainly wasn't applying it thin. I thought I read to apply it fairly wet, but of course can't find now where. Maybe that was the problem.

Are you level sanding between each application, or just once between your base coats and a finish coat?

[Mike Conner]

Randolph,
I have all the details from my experience and notes and links from others in the Finishing section of my Archtop Build Journal, in the Build Tutorials section of MIMF:
http://www.mimf.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=3905

There is a lot of this same information, and much more detail from Chuck and others, in the pages of this thread.

All that to avoid having to retype or copy stuff we have already written down in this reply
//mike

[Todd Stock]

From what I've seen with a few test panels and a couple necks, the brushed coats go on like any varnish - keep the edge wet and avoid rework will actually help avoid runs. Just like varnish on bare wood, there's a coat or two that is pure misery in terms of brushing it on and sanding it off, but it goes quickly with Endure-Var due to drying times. It was much more difficult to get a nice, wet 3-5 mil coat when spraying until the pores filled, and it's easy to get a little too much on because the material goes on with more gesture than I am used to seeing with lacquer or two-pack poly, then quickly levels...get the coat on and then give it a chance to level before looking for dry spots. After each coat on the necks, I hand-rotated things for a few minutes to minimize any run or slump...avoid the temptation to just hang the component before seeing how it levels. Once the component flashed, I hung in the drying box and got very short turn-around for sand and reshoot. Even a large sag I got on the first coat and the usual waterbased edge build-up (lacquer flows away from edges; WB flows toward them) sanded out with ease - but worth doing on every coat if you want a quick final sand after cure.

[Gordon Bellerose]

Gordon, did you try the Minwax Ultimate? It is a cross-linked polyurethane that is supposed to dry clear. I've got a gallon coming so I will at least have a go with it on test pieces.

No, I have not tried it. Please let us know how it works for you.
In all fairness, I have never been any good with a brush on large surfaces, so no matter what I have tried, my brushing would ruin it.
I have brushed EM=6000, and Britetone on necks and had good success. Light coats is the trick.

[Randolph Rhett]

Randolph,
I have all the details from my experience and notes and links from others in the Finishing section of my Archtop Build Journal, in the Build Tutorials section of MIMF:
http://www.mimf.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=3905

There is a lot of this same information, and much more detail from Chuck and others, in the pages of this thread.

All that to avoid having to retype or copy stuff we have already written down in this reply
//mike

Thank you, Mike. I don't want you to retype anything. In fact, I've read your journal (nice job) and every post in this discussion. However, following the brush on advice I have not had the same results. Neither, apparently, has Ken C. I was hoping to figure out why. Since there is no substitute for actually seeing someone do it, I was hoping for a quick vid to see if there was something I was missing. I know it was a big ask, and have no problem if it is beyond what anyone wishes to do.

[Steve Sawyer]

A friend gave me a small sample of Enduro-Var to play with, but haven't had a chance to do anything with it.

Reading some of the comments above w/regard to brushing, I was wondering how EV responds to thinning? Some of the problems seem to be related to applying a too-heavy coat, and I was wondering if thinning and applying more, thinner coats might be worth trying...

[Todd Stock]

After putting out the first commission with an Enduro-Var neck finish, I have a few observations:

- If not using epoxy fill, def more work than lacquer with sanding every coat.
- Much easier to floss and fit neck to body - lacquer can be tricky on raw edges like fretboards and cheeks, but no release seen with Endure-Var - even when using coarser paper.
- No delam around small screw holes, etc. - the finish wants to stay attached.
- Sanding and buffing was about as much work as three week old lacquer - gloss identical to lacquer.
- The customer was unable to tell the difference in finishes between the lacquered body and Enduro-Var neck - nice amber tone that was not over-the-top.

[Brian Evans]

The StewMac finishing schedule says to sand with 1000 grit only after all the coats are on and cured for a week or more. Why do you feel it's necessary to sand after every coat? My understanding (from reading all 8 pages about three times) is that this finish does not melt into the existing coats with re-coats, and that any sanding scratches that don't get perfectly blended out get preserved under the top coat, and can't be buffed or sanded out. So the normal for lacquer flat sanding after every spray session is not a good idea. Anxious to hear if this is incorrect...

Brian

[Barry Daniels]

If the finish does not melt into itself then sanding between each coat is normally necessary for proper adhesion. But each finish has its own characteristics so generalizations are often wrong.