How do production shops keep black specs out of burst centers?

[Nick Sorenson]

I've always wondered this. I've heard Fender didn't worry about it on the Pre-CBS instruments. Obviously they do something about it now. Taylor, Gibson, PRS, and many other production shops also do something about it since there are no noticeable specs in the center of their bursts. What is the technique they're using? I know many people sand. That's not super hard but it is messy. My guess would be that this is how it's done in production but I've always wondered.

[Nathan Noel]

Good CLEAN spray equipment... higher pressure, good atomization it's not that difficult I either do them with an airbrush and build the burst up slowly or with a conventional jamb gun and use a round pattern with the flow choked down. An HVLP is not the right gun for doing bursts. Say no to sanding after bursting... that's not the answer. The answer is not to blow garbage into the burst to begin with.

[Eddie McRae]

Agree with Nathan. First, low air pressure and low fluid flow, but you still want the gun pressure to way overpower your fluid flow. It makes coverage a good bit slower because you're basically dry-spraying but it keeps the paint completely atomized and keeps droplets from blowing in towards the center of your burst and by shooting at the lowest possible pressure to still get complete atomization, you eliminate the possiblity of blowing any trash into the finish. Also, pay close attention to gun angle. Gun angle and gun setting are the two most important factors involved. Typically, you should be holding your gun at 45 degrees or less of angle and shooting towards the center of the body to create your blended burst effect. But I find it easier sometimes to shoot from the inside out on my black outer burst color just to get good coverage around the very edge. Then, I switch and start shooting from outside toward inside to get a good black burst blend. DO NOT sand your burst. Sanding does nothing but remove the "blending" overspray and will basically just leave you with edged burst lines rather than a nice gradual blend. I, like Nathan, use a non-hvlp touchup gun and an airbrush to spray my burst finishes....which, btw, make up about 90% of the finishes that I spray. And I've got lots of pics if they'd be helpful.

[Louie Atienza]

You could make a templae that's a couple inches inside the outline of your guitar. Hold it up a couple inches off the guitar before doing the burst. I've used a small detail gun with high pressure to get the spray as fine as possible.

[Nick Sorenson]

Thanks Nathan, Eddie, and Louie. What I'm questioning specifically is a solid body with a black or very dark brown edge such as a Fender Sunburst. With these I can't see how it's possible to spray the edges of the guitar black without getting black into the center. If not specs at least some overspray that would dull up the amber/yellow center. Of course once the fade starts that's different and of course there are ways of keeping that out of the center such as spraying outward. But on the edges they have to be opaque and the gun is pointed towards the center.

I've read George Fullerton saying they used a touchup or jamb gun for their bursts. I use a conventional quart gun with a tight fan and very little fluid. I definitely don't like the look of any overspray from my blackening the edges getting into the center.

[Eddie McRae]

It's all about gun control and using the right gun for the job. If you're wanting a very thin, defined outer black, then you might wanna consider using an airbrush. If you want more of a blended, wider outer black, then a touch-up gun would probably be your best choice. All these bursts were done with a touchup gun only which gives a little wider and more blended outer burst. And there is no black at all anywhere near the center color in any of them.

[Eddie McRae]

If, however, you want a thinner, more defined outer black, then an airbrush is easiest to work with. I used an airbrush for the outer black color on these. As you can see, you certainly have more control and accuracy with an airbrush. Just depends on the look you're after.

[Nick Sorenson]

Beautiful guitars Eddie. Great finishing as well. Is that lacquer or something else?

[Eddie McRae]

Thanks Nick. Let me see...the first is urethane. The second is an OMI Dobro that I restored with a vintage aged finish. It's nitro. The third is nitro and is a resonator I'm just finishing up with that I'm actually in the process of spraying as we speak. The fourth (tele) is urethane. And the last one is nitro. But like I said earlier, almost every single guitar I build winds up with some form of a burst finish on it. I have very few customers request straight natural or painted finishes.

[Nick Sorenson]

Thanks Nick. Let me see...the first is urethane. The second is an OMI Dobro that I restored with a vintage aged finish. It's nitro. The third is nitro and is a resonator I'm just finishing up with that I'm actually in the process of spraying as we speak. The fourth (tele) is urethane. And the last one is nitro. But like I said earlier, almost every single guitar I build winds up with some form of a burst finish on it. I have very few customers request straight natural or painted finishes.

That OMI finish is great! How'd you achieve that dull rubbed look? I love it! That's amazing!!!

Do you find urethanes to be difficult to touchup? Seems like if a small ding found it's way into the finish during production even if it didn't break through the color, it could be a chore to make disappear. I've sprayed urethane sealer once and loved it. No more sinking into the grain. Nitro is beautiful and sounds great but it's difficult to have it look good years down the road as it shrinks. I find that something sanded and buffed glass smooth can look like orange peel several months down the road. I've thought about urethanes. Having to repair shop handling dings scares me a bit.

[Eddie McRae]

Thanks again Nick. First, in regards to urethane...it's harder to work with but if you're after high-gloss durability, it's definitely the way to go. It's much tougher to color-sand and buff and polish in comparison to nitro but it's a much tougher finish in the end. And it retains it's slickness and gloss whereas, nitro, as it ages, continues to shrink and sink into the grain. You can take a nitro finish and sand/buff to the most perfect slickness and gloss only to return a week later and find that it's sunk into the grain and ain't so perfect anymore! That'll make you sick! Urethane won't do that....but the downside is, along with being tougher to work with, you can't touchup and blend urethane like you can lacquer. I guess it's a tradeoff. As for the OMI, there's a history behind that thing. I took it in on trade years ago along with an old National Trojan. Both were in bad shape and coming apart. Sold the Trojan as it was and wound up holding on to the dobro for a few years before deciding to fix it. The top and back had separated so I had to repair them along with alot of other things gone wrong...hence the binding on it now. It had no hardware so I had to buy all new stuff for it as well. On that one, after alot of level-sanding and clearing, I finally used ultrafine steel wool to dull it down and then polished it back up just a little using Meguiar's Fine Cut Cleaner. That was a couple of years or so ago that I did that one. I now sand to 2500 and then polish it back up a little with either buffing compound or the fine cut cleaner. The first album below shows a few pics as I did the finish work on it. The second album is a few pics of it after it was done. And btw, I still have that one and play it live almost weekly in an acoustic duo that I'm in.
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set= ... 318&type=3
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set= ... 318&type=3

[Nick Sorenson]

Thanks again Nick. First, in regards to urethane...it's harder to work with but if you're after high-gloss durability, it's definitely the way to go. It's much tougher to color-sand and buff and polish in comparison to nitro but it's a much tougher finish in the end. And it retains it's slickness and gloss whereas, nitro, as it ages, continues to shrink and sink into the grain. You can take a nitro finish and sand/buff to the most perfect slickness and gloss only to return a week later and find that it's sunk into the grain and ain't so perfect anymore! That'll make you sick! Urethane won't do that....but the downside is, along with being tougher to work with, you can't touchup and blend urethane like you can lacquer. I guess it's a tradeoff. As for the OMI, there's a history behind that thing. I took it in on trade years ago along with an old National Trojan. Both were in bad shape and coming apart. Sold the Trojan as it was and wound up holding on to the dobro for a few years before deciding to fix it. The top and back had separated so I had to repair them along with alot of other things gone wrong...hence the binding on it now. It had no hardware so I had to buy all new stuff for it as well. On that one, after alot of level-sanding and clearing, I finally used ultrafine steel wool to dull it down and then polished it back up just a little using Meguiar's Fine Cut Cleaner. That was a couple of years or so ago that I did that one. I now sand to 2500 and then polish it back up a little with either buffing compound or the fine cut cleaner. The first album below shows a few pics as I did the finish work on it. The second album is a few pics of it after it was done. And btw, I still have that one and play it live almost weekly in an acoustic duo that I'm in.
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set= ... 318&type=3
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set= ... 318&type=3

That is really really cool! I love how that finish has almost a smokey haze to it. Did you find you could see the steel wool scratches in person or did the fine cut cleaner take care of most of that? I've tried a steel wool type finish in the past and used 0000 (probably the problem I used hardware store wool) and it looked well... scratchy and that's about it.

And yep I've about had it with Nitro. I'll buff and polish until I can use it as a reflection to comb my hair with;) Come back the next week to assemble and it looks like it wasn't wet sanded. lol! But what do you do. I guess, plan for a year or two of curing time:)

[Andy Birko]

With these I can't see how it's possible to spray the edges of the guitar black without getting black into the center.

When bursting, you hold the gun in the center of the guitar and spray "out". No specs.

[Nick Sorenson]

still sort of out on how fender and others spray the edges solid black and keep the center clean since to spray the edge black the gun has to heave overspray towards the center.

[Eddie McRae]

Proper gun settings and proper gun angle. That's it. For the gun, a very tight fan with very low fluid and high pressure (in comparison to the fluid setting) which should create an almost dryspray result. From there, gun angle is the key. A steep angle at the very outer edge of the body will give less of an inward blend while reducing that angle will coincidingly increase the inward blend. Also, much easier done with the body in a horizontal position...rather than hanging.

[Shawn Ball]

At the ReRanch site under "Basic Refinishing" then "Aerosol Sunbursts", they recommend making a cardboard template slightly smaller than your guitar body, and spraying your burst from the edge, so you'll get a slight amount of feathering to soften the line of the black or brown burst as it blends into the lighter center.

I have personally only done one burst, an I did it all with analine dyes, as I don't have any real spray equipment. I sprayed my dyes using a small Testors model spray kit, and sprayed the darker burst colors from the edges inward, using a couple of cardboard templates, so they would have a softer transition. I can't locate the pictures at the moment, but it turned out decent.

[John Meyers]

If you want to know how the big boys do it just go to you tube and look up PRS guitars and they will show you. They hold the guitar body by hand in a vertical posision and spray it only letting the edge make contact with the body and they work their way in until they get the look they are after. The rest like gun settings are said above by the others. They also use car paint which I do not know if that really makes a difference.

[Nathan Noel]

Oh... and another thing you can do. For a super thin black burst around the edges. you can mask the top off completely before putting any color down. (I would roll the edges of the mask to ease the tape line.) then unmask and airbrush the thin black fade and then come back in with my jamb gun and spray my color right over the black, it's a translucent or a candy color so it's not going to show up on the black. Starting with my lightest color (for a 3 tone tobacco I'd put down the black edge, then spray my red working from the outside in and then follow up with my amber or candy gold over the whole thing. Seems contrary but in the auto graphics world working from darks to light candies is the tradition.

[Mark Swanson]

If you have your color mixed strong in the gun, then the colored part of the burst will build up very quickly and it can be hard to get an even or a deep transition. The best bet is to mix your color thin, use a lot of thinner. This way it sprays very well and it will take you a few applications to get your color deep and rich enough but because it takes a while to build the color at the edge your burst will be very even and you'll have better control. It's easier to control that overspray too because if any flecks of color do get into the center they are not very noticable. I feel that most people try to build the sunburst up too quickly. You also don't want a lot of clear finish in the color coats, just mostly thinner and color, with a little finish to bind it. If you have too much finish in there and you are slowly building your color, the finish can get thick before you know it.
Most of the thickness of your finish should be built up of clear after the color coat is done.

[Nathan Noel]

Right. When bursting you should not be using "paint", when mixing my own for lacquer, it's thinner and transtint dyes with just enough lacquer added to give it some viscosity and stick. (I tend to use urethane candy base coats from House of Kolor or Kustom Shop)

If you have your color mixed strong in the gun, then the colored part of the burst will build up very quickly and it can be hard to get an even or a deep transition. The best bet is to mix your color thin, use a lot of thinner. This way it sprays very well and it will take you a few applications to get your color deep and rich enough but because it takes a while to build the color at the edge your burst will be very even and you'll have better control. It's easier to control that overspray too because if any flecks of color do get into the center they are not very noticable. I feel that most people try to build the sunburst up too quickly. You also don't want a lot of clear finish in the color coats, just mostly thinner and color, with a little finish to bind it. If you have too much finish in there and you are slowly building your color, the finish can get thick before you know it.
Most of the thickness of your finish should be built up of clear after the color coat is done.