impatience or justified frustration?

[Ryan Mazzocco]

I need to know which. Since I am new at this maybe this is just how things go and I just don't know it yet. As you know from my other thread I recently put 3 of my guitars up for consignment in a local music store. The manager and the staff looked over and played my guitars, all seemed very impressed and seemed enthusiastic about showing them in their store. He said he would display them in the "glass room" with all the higher end guitars but he would need to make some room first. I also didn't want to trust the sales team to tell my story for me so I made up some marketing fliers which he said he would hang next to them. he also told me he would show them on the store's Facebook page and on their reverb. Everything sounds cool.
That was on Monday. Tuesday I stop in, they're still cased up behind the front counter exactly as I remember them when I left the day before. A little disappointed but I understand. Wednesday still no sign of my guitars on the sales floor. Thursday and one model has found its way to a guitar stand in a corner of the glass room. Hey that's progress at least. But none of my info sheets have made an appearance. The manager was out but the girl at the counter said they would be moving everything else out that night. That's good news. So I'm excited about Friday because I want to see all of my guitars on full display and get some good pics for my social media and whatnot. Friday afternoon, still no change. I call the manager Friday evening because I had other things to discuss with him anyway, more on that later, and he told me that he had a guy that was rearranging some stuff right now and that everything else would be out Saturday morning and that I could come by and look at it. Well it is now Saturday afternoon and still nothing has changed.
After I left the store Monday I realized there were some things I forgot to discuss and questions I forgot to ask, so I emailed him that evening. He never answered my email. Granted, he was out of town for a meeting Tuesday, had the day off Wednesday and was lying down in the back room battling a vertigo episode when I came by on Thursday. I stopped in every day, left messages with the staff asking him to call me back but never heard from him until I finally caught him Friday evening. I'm growing concerned that they aren't in all that big of a hurry to show them. If things don't show signs of picking up I might have to pull them and take them to another store in town. The are several to choose from. I can just as easily not show them in my kitchen.
So, is this pretty much how it goes our do they seem especially unmotivated here?

[Peter Wilcox]

I know nothing about business, but my advice to you would be "chill." Your motivation and the store's motivation time-wise and money-wise are toward opposite ends of a spectrum - they may have other more pressing business concerns. Selling your guitars is probably not going to make even a small bump in the store's profits. Also, if the manager is having problems with vertigo (chronic or acute), that can be extremely debilitating and makes other concerns much less important in the moment - I'm surprised he even went to work.

So give it some time - don't hassle them - your expectations may be a little unrealistic. Give it another week. It will work out in the end if your guitars are desirable.

[Randolph Rhett]

I can relate 100%. Maybe I'm getting old and cynical, but I can think of at least a dozen times I've been involved in a product roll out where I was convinced, CONVINCED I tell you, that if I just got the right exposure business would explode.

I don't know the Joplin market, but I live in a city with a disproportionate number of people with more money than sense. Even so, i used to see the same high end guitars from top builders hang on the walls for months if not years. I'm thinking of the "upstairs" at a place called Buffalo Brothers. This was a very big shop. Even so, I'd be surprised if they moved more than one a month. Their bred and butter seemed to be the ubiquitous Taylors.

I know that it must seem that if they would just put your guitars front and center they would all be sold by the end of the week. Again, I don't know Joplin, but I suspect you store sells very few guitars out of the "glass room". When they have a customer who is actually prepared to drop $5k+ on a guitar, I'm sure they get a very high touch sales process. They are probably shown each and every high end guitar in the size/style they are interested in. They will be offered to play them, or have the best player in the shop play for them. The customer will probably "sleep on it".

I suspect that the inclusion of you marketing material will not make a major difference. Nor where in the "glass room" the guitar is placed. So I would second Peter in saying to chill and not alienate the store. I don't think most people impulse buy a high end acoustic because they saw it in a window.

Now, if somehow you find out that qualified purchaser are being steered away from your guitars or using your guitars as a foil to sell their stock guitar, then you have something to worry about.

[Ryan Mazzocco]

Peter and Randolph, Thanks and I appreciate hearing your perspective. Since this is my first time ever trying something like this I just really didn't know what to expect. Honestly, I never expected my guitars to sell out in week, not that I didn't day dream about that kind of success, but I knew it wasn't realistic. This market is probably the opposite of the San Diego market. We are poor around here. the cost of living is low and most wages reflect that. The manager was honest with me and said that they don't sell many guitars in my price range, about 1 a month, and that's usually going to be one of the higher end Taylors. Sure, I would love to sell them and turn that money into another batch of guitars and a little to put in my pocket, but what I'm really trying to accomplish here is getting my name/brand a little recognition. Even if they don't sell I feel like having them displayed in the "best store in town" legitimizes what I'm doing.
I'm sure I'm just a little over eager to see them all set up on display. I won't go burning any bridges quite yet.

[Perry Ormsby]

Ryan, they havent paid for your guitars. They have nothing to lose by not rushing to put them up. That one taylor a month they sell, has been prepurchased, and those bills need to be covered. So when it comes to the crunch.... does the sales guy sell yours, and then imediately cut a cheque for 80% (??) of the total to forward to you... or bank the entire amount to cover a guitar he may have purchased 6 months ago on credit?

You'd be better investing the 20% (or whatever the commission you agreed on was) in advertising on social media, OUTSIDE your local economic area.

PS, I was in your exact position 7 years ago. Exactly the same. I ended up selling the guitars for them, and never gave them any more... Last week I revisited the same store and they had their first order of PREPAID guitars delivered. 6 out of 8 sold within a week. In other words, hang in there...

[Ryan Mazzocco]

Ryan, they havent paid for your guitars. They have nothing to lose by not rushing to put them up. That one taylor a month they sell, has been prepurchased, and those bills need to be covered. So when it comes to the crunch.... does the sales guy sell yours, and then imediately cut a cheque for 80% (??) of the total to forward to you... or bank the entire amount to cover a guitar he may have purchased 6 months ago on credit?

You'd be better investing the 20% (or whatever the commission you agreed on was) in advertising on social media, OUTSIDE your local economic area.

PS, I was in your exact position 7 years ago. Exactly the same. I ended up selling the guitars for them, and never gave them any more... Last week I revisited the same store and they had their first order of PREPAID guitars delivered. 6 out of 8 sold within a week. In other words, hang in there...

Thanks Perry
I always appreciate your upbeat and positive attitude. I don't need or want to be rich. I just want to be able to support my family by doing something that I love. I think I'm taking the first steps right now. I will hang in there as you say.

[David King]

Ryan,

If there's a Facebook group of local musicians that you can join you had better do that and start inviting all the other local musicians you know. If there is no such group, you would do well to start one. The point of this would not be to start flogging your wares immediately but to find out who your market is and to start going to their gigs and getting to know them. If you support them, they will be a lot more likely to support you over the long run.

Most of the folks I know who make a successful living with building guitars have either retired from a much more lucrative career with substantial savings or they have diversified into repairs, selling used instruments, servicing the guitar making industry in some way, starting a "school", teaching part time at their local community college. Meanwhile most "pro" musicians have to do the same thing.

In the immortal words of Homer Simpson (paraphrased) "No matter how good you are at something there are always a million people who can do it better than you." In other words you not only have to build the best damn guitar but you need to be better at selling it than everyone else. That's a high wall to climb and not for the faint of heart, some would warn the higher you climb -the further you have to fall. Seeking happiness inevitably involves some compromise and those compromises need evolve over time. Be smart about the compromises you choose to make. Don't go into debt and be upfront with your family about what you want and how you are going to get there.

[Ryan Mazzocco]

Glad I didn't do anything foolish. I went into the store yesterday to check on things and just started chewing fat with the guy at the counter. He's a lower level guy, doesn't seem to have any real authority at the store... but when I walked in he was hanging my guitar back up as he had just finished re-tuning it. So, they are taking care of it for me. That's a plus. We got to talking and I learned some things while I was there. It turns out they are having a bit of a hard time getting the rest of my guitars in there because as a Taylor and Martin dealer, he said they are required to keep x number of them out on the floor at all times or they can lose their deal. And they don't want to put my guitars outside the glass room because it's solid wood construction as well as the price point. The manager was off yesterday, but this young man said he would text him and see if they could do something to get them in. So, I feel a little better about the whole thing. I was kind and tactful. Rather than going in there all, "Hey where are my guitars, you said they would be up!" I just said that I was hoping to get some pictures of the guitars out on display to use on my social media and was wondering when that might be possible.
I'm still learning and I know I have a lot more to learn but isn't that part of the fun?

[Ryan Mazzocco]

Don't go into debt and be upfront with your family about what you want and how you are going to get there.

That's good advice. Other than a small personal loan from my grandma I haven't borrowed any money. I think that's part of why it's going so slow, but I'd rather take my time building from nothing than get too deep into it only for it to not work out.
My wife is totally on board with the whole thing. She loves it and is very supportive of my dreams. But she also helps me keep the balance that is required to not go too far too fast

[Dave Weir]

You might give Etsy a try. It's worked very well for me. There aren't that many people selling guitars there, so you aren't completely lost in the mix like on Reverb. It only costs twenty cents for a six month listing, and I think the fees with credit card fees are about 6 percent if it sells. You can even list the ones you have on consignment.

A lot of my sales are to people who really weren't looking to buy a guitar. They were looking for a vase for the wife, got bored, and typed in electric guitar.

It's kind of a numbers game. It takes me about 600 looks to make a sale, and I get about 50 looks a day.

I have a little different approach to pricing than most. I don't worry about how much time I have in them, or what I comparable guitar would cost. I price them to sell. This way I get to keep making them (which was the whole point anyway), and they aren't piling up in my living room. I don't draw a salary or cover over head, but I do have a positive cash flow, a lot of new tools, a ton of wood (literally), a pretty nice war chest, and I have learned a lot. If my situation changes where I want to or have to do this full time, I'm ready to go.

So I don't even bother with consignment.

If I needed to make a sale today, I would take two guitars down to Balboa Park and play one until someone buys the other.

[Clay Schaeffer]

Guitars represent a significant investment in time and money for the builder. The field is also rather crowded by commercial production. You might try building a less popular niche type instrument, or something that can be quickly made (in addition to your guitars). A friend of mine made simple bamboo flutes. They were expertly tuned and made in various keys. I've made simple stick dulcimers from scrap laminate and lower grade spruce and cedar tops. Low cost, quickly constructed, fun little instruments that sold quickly. Like Dave, I'm doing this for the fun of it. Selling a few now and then is nice, but isn't my day job.

[Ryan Mazzocco]

I take it allllll back....
This was attached to the the promo they did for me on their facebook page this evening.

[Chuck Tweedy]

Very nice!
What is the Facebook link?

[Ryan Mazzocco]

Very nice!
What is the Facebook link?

which one? theirs or mine?
Mine is http://www.facebook.com/mazzoccoguitars
and theirs is http://www.facebook.com/erniewilliamsonmusic

[Chuck Tweedy]

Theirs dummy!
I don't want to friend YOU on FB Jeez!

[Ryan Mazzocco]

Theirs dummy!
I don't want to friend YOU on FB Jeez!

Whaaahahaaahaaa!!!

[Ryan Mazzocco]

Okay, so I've pretty much chilled and stayed out of their business like you all suggested. Once they got my guitars up on display I left it alone for a while. Yesterday I decided to go in and just check on things, ask a few questions, try to get a pulse on the whole thing. They couldn't have acted less interested that I was there. And I certainly got the impression that they were not that interested in selling my guitars. Now, understand this was only 2 of the sales people of probably half a dozen or better that regularly work there...
When I asked how the guitars were doing he shrugged and said, "they're still there." I asked if any interest had been shown, you know people looking at them, picking them up, playing them, etc... Basically they told me that no one has really shown any interest. He mentioned my price, "A $xxxx.xx guitar needs to be really nice." and I read his body language (which I am normally quite good at doing) as saying they aren't worth that. Now, That could be just this one salesman's opinion. When I first brought them in, the store manager and several other employees thought they were just fantastic and only had good things to say.
Then they go on to tell me that they don't sell many guitars in that price range, which I already knew from talking with the manager. But instead they sell a lot of lower priced (entry level priced) guitars and that people who are wanting to spend that kind of money usually already know what they want before they come in the store. As they explained, A person comes in knowing they are going to buy a Taylor or a Martin, plays a couple different models of the brand they've already chosen and don't look at anything else.
I knew I was competing against all that and none of it is really anything I didn't know, but I couldn't help coming away from the whole thing feeling very discouraged. Maybe I'm just taking the whole thing too personally.
I know they've been played. there is evidence that I can see that someone has been looking at them and playing them. Maybe the sales people were just too disinterested to notice. Oh well, at least they're getting some exposure out in the the public for now.

[Peter Wilcox]

Ryan, I know nothing about selling stuff, but I'm sure folks more knowledgeable than me (everybody) will have some useful suggestions.

1) My guess would be that as a newcomer to the business, you have no reputation and as such, your guitars are priced too high. Sometimes you have to lower your expectations to get started.

2) Even if the execution is flawless and the playability and sound are superb, it doesn't seem like people with the ability to distinguish these characteristics frequent the store, or if they do, they already have a brand with a reputation in mind. A salesman with your interests in mind could ask the customer if he'd like to play yours for comparison.

3) You need to find a way to market the guitars, something that explains to potential customers on a gut level what distinguishes your guitars from the rest, and why they are a great deal. And something to give the store/salespeople a reason to push your guitars to customers - or find another venue for them.

[Chuck Tweedy]

Dude, you gotta chill out.
As long as they are not damaged in the shop's care, then you've lost nothing. They will get spotted, they will get played, and guitar geeks in your area will know that you are out there. These are connections that are of value because a network of people that know your work is what you need.
If they were in your living room would they get any of that??
Now if you are in this to take the market over from Martin - then this is the wrong thing to do, but... really

And for gawd sake don't take anything that a guitar shop employee says personally - key words: "guitar shop employee"... really

[Ryan Mazzocco]

Dude, you gotta chill out.
As long as they are not damaged in the shop's care, then you've lost nothing. They will get spotted, they will get played, and guitar geeks in your area will know that you are out there. These are connections that are of value because a network of people that know your work is what you need.
If they were in your living room would they get any of that??
Now if you are in this to take the market over from Martin - then this is the wrong thing to do, but... really

And for gawd sake don't take anything that a guitar shop employee says personally - key words: "guitar shop employee"... really

Thanks I needed that. Really. I'm sorry everyone. I must seem like a total neurotic mess. I promise I'm not. I'm actually a very well adjusted, level headed individual. I've just never done anything like this before and I don't know what to do, what not to do, what to expect, when to get upset and when to just chill. That's kind of making me a bit of a crazy person when it comes to this right now. It's something that I've been working at for so long and it's something that I want so bad that I want everything to happen right now. I owe everything to this group. I'll try to keep my crazy to myself from now on.