Need help understanding plane use

[Ron Daves]

I have 3 planes for use in flattening:
1: Stanley Bailey #4
2: Stanley Bailey # 4 1/2
3: Stanley #62 smoothing plane.

I've refurbished the Bailey planes and tuned them by flattening the base and sharpening the blades to 30-degrees. I also flattened and polished the backs of the Lever caps. I'm not sure if I relieved the corners of these blades enough. I have used the # 4 with an oem blade/lever cap but have purchased a Hock blade and cap for the #4 1/2.

The # 62 came with a pre-sharpened blade, but I did a little work on the corners (not sure it was enough, but this plane gets a nice full shaving). I flattened the uke sides with this plane and it worked well.

The workspace I use is in a distant garage. So, I went to the garage last night to plane my Uke lumber. Unfortunately, I left my # 62 at home, so tried using the Baileys. When I used the #4, I wasn't able to get the blade adjusted so that I got a shaving all across the blade. I either got a shaving on the right or on the left, but never a really good full shaving.

So I put that plane away and started using the 4 1/2. The Hock blade was very sharp, so all I did was take a couple swipes on the corners using a 1200 grit stone. Then I installed it in my 4 1/2 and proceeded with planing. I got the same results: Adjust as I would, the blade wouldn't cut a shaving full across the blade. Adjust one way and got a corner shaving, adjust the other way, same result, different corner.

I'm not sure whether I should relieve the blade corners aggressively or very gently and very little.

The #62 is going to be my plane of choice for smoothing, but I am curious about what I might have to do with the other two planes to get them to work the way they should.
Is there something I should do with the frogs, or is the issue with relieving the corners?

Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Bryan Bear]

I'm far from an expert on the finer points of hand plane use but am learning. You flattened the sole of the two smoothers, did you do any work on the frog surfaces or have you adjusted the frog position? You should be able to get the lateral adjust set fairly easily, at least not have only cutting on one side or the other. I can't really say what the problem might be, but that won't stop me from guessing anyway:

1) If you are using the lateral adjustment lever and ending up too far right or left (having trouble getting a fine adjustment), it may be that you have the lever cap too tight. It should be tight enough to keep the blade from moving in use but loose enough to allow fairly easy adjustment for depth and side to side. the lever should close with a nice snap but not be hard to close.

2) Is the frog bearing surface and back of the blade relatively smooth? I could see how that might make the adjustments more coarse.

3) Check to make sure the frogs are aligned properly with the mouth opening.

I wish I could be more help. Honestly, short of a teacher standing there with you, one of the best things you can do is just start planing away on a bunch of scrap wood. The practice will help and you will get to do plenty of adjusting.

[Alan Carruth]

It can take some time to get the hang of adjusting a plane. Usually there's some backlash in the adjustments; a small movement on the lever doesn't do anything, and a little bit more does too much.

I grind one of my plane irons flat with the corners broken back, so that it can be used for either joining or smoothing. Sometimes it's hard to avoid catching a corner when smoothing. This is particularly true if the iron is not REALLY SHARP; the center gets a bit dull, and you can't take a fine enough shaving to avoid having the set deep enough to catch a corner.

If you've got more than one plane of similar size it can help to grind one for smoothing. The iron has an arc all the way across so that it makes a slightly fluted cut. You won't catch the corners in most cases, and can flatten up the surface with a scraper.

[Bob Hammond]

You mentioned that your workspace was in a distant garage.

How's the weather there? How fast does it change with respect to temperature and humidity, such that the wood would move?

Do you have scrap lumber to do some testing and adjustment, before you work the more precious stuff?

By the way:

"....I've refurbished the Bailey planes and tuned them by flattening the base and sharpening the blades to 30-degrees. I also flattened and polished the backs of the Lever caps."

Do I misunderstad something of the terminology? For the Nos. 4 & 4-1/2, there are three parts for the blade assembly: 1) the blade, 2) the chipbreaker that is held tight to the blade with a screw and supports it, and 3) the cap iron with the cam-lever that holds the blade/chipbreaker assembly tight to the frog. In the 62, there is no chipbreaker that supports the blade. There is only a cap iron that has a screw that holds the blade down upon the fixed bed (frog) of the casting.

[Bob Hammond]

I've thought of something else. When setting the blade, it's very important that the parts move smoothly -- otherwise they'll 'go out of adjustment' within a stroke or three.

Assuming that the frog is set correctly with respect to the mouth of the body, then the planar surface of the frog must be flat and smooth, so as to allow the blade/chipbreaker to slide easily to adjust depth of cut. The frog supports the blade, but it should not resist the 'pushback' of the cutting stroke - that's the job of the nub of the adjuster mechanism (and lateral adjuster lever). A bit of lubrication between the frog and blade might help. Also the cap iron (that holds the blade/chipbreader down upon the frog) must be snug and yet allow a smooth movement.

Try some lubrication between these parts, and don't overtighten them.

[Ron Daves]

You mentioned that your workspace was in a distant garage.

How's the weather there? How fast does it change with respect to temperature and humidity, such that the wood would move?

Do you have scrap lumber to do some testing and adjustment, before you work the more precious stuff?

By the way:

"....I've refurbished the Bailey planes and tuned them by flattening the base and sharpening the blades to 30-degrees. I also flattened and polished the backs of the Lever caps."

Do I misunderstad something of the terminology? For the Nos. 4 & 4-1/2, there are three parts for the blade assembly: 1) the blade, 2) the chipbreaker that is held tight to the blade with a screw and supports it, and 3) the cap iron with the cam-lever that holds the blade/chipbreaker assembly tight to the frog. In the 62, there is no chipbreaker that supports the blade. There is only a cap iron that has a screw that holds the blade down upon the fixed bed (frog) of the casting.

High humidity here. Came from desert in mid May.

Yes, I have scrap lumber and have been testing before I start working on the expensive stuff. I continue to learn more and more about sharpening plane irons and now, after 30+ years, I'm showing some progress.

On terminology, thanks for asking. I must have been tired: On my Bailey 4 1/2, I have not had to do anything to the lever cap. I flattened and sharpened the chip breaker . The angle was probably 45 degrees and I found it easier to hand sharpen than to use my Veritas guide. I also decided to hand sharpen the Hock blade and did a pretty good job. I chamfered it just a bit and that really helped.

I've had better luck with the #4 1/2 than the # 62 on this go-round. I worked on the 4 1/2 a lot just because of the challenge. Now it seems to be doing a better job than the # 62. Tomorrow, I'll play with the # 62 to see if I can improve its performance.

Thanks for the input

[Ron Daves]

I've thought of something else. When setting the blade, it's very important that the parts move smoothly -- otherwise they'll 'go out of adjustment' within a stroke or three.

Assuming that the frog is set correctly with respect to the mouth of the body, then the planar surface of the frog must be flat and smooth, so as to allow the blade/chipbreaker to slide easily to adjust depth of cut. The frog supports the blade, but it should not resist the 'pushback' of the cutting stroke - that's the job of the nub of the adjuster mechanism (and lateral adjuster lever). A bit of lubrication between the frog and blade might help. Also the cap iron (that holds the blade/chipbreader down upon the frog) must be snug and yet allow a smooth movement.

Try some lubrication between these parts, and don't overtighten them.

I took a close look at the frog on the # 4 1/2 and found it to be slightly off. I adjusted it just a bit, eased the cap iron screw by a "schosh" and that was a big help.

I'm now getting better results with the # 4 1/2. The # 62, bevel up, device is still a bit of a mystery.

[Ron Daves]

I'm far from an expert on the finer points of hand plane use but am learning. You flattened the sole of the two smoothers, did you do any work on the frog surfaces or have you adjusted the frog position? You should be able to get the lateral adjust set fairly easily, at least not have only cutting on one side or the other. I can't really say what the problem might be, but that won't stop me from guessing anyway:

1) If you are using the lateral adjustment lever and ending up too far right or left (having trouble getting a fine adjustment), it may be that you have the lever cap too tight. It should be tight enough to keep the blade from moving in use but loose enough to allow fairly easy adjustment for depth and side to side. the lever should close with a nice snap but not be hard to close.

2) Is the frog bearing surface and back of the blade relatively smooth? I could see how that might make the adjustments more coarse.

3) Check to make sure the frogs are aligned properly with the mouth opening.

I wish I could be more help. Honestly, short of a teacher standing there with you, one of the best things you can do is just start planing away on a bunch of scrap wood. The practice will help and you will get to do plenty of adjusting.

Yep, after I sharpened the # 4 1/2 and did some other "tuning", I eased up on both the lateral adjustment and the blade extension and things are going better. Thanx

[Bob Hammond]

Ron, I found this Japanese video about how important the chipbreaker is, and how works with the blade, and I think you'll find it interesting. In the video, the chipbreaker is called a 'cap iron':

http://giantcypress.net/post/2315954813 ... created-by

[Ron Daves]

well, I'm in trouble, again. I got the Hock blades for my Bailey 4 1/2 and Stanley #62. They were nice and sharp and worked will for thinning the lumber of my current project.
I decided to sharpen the #62 and to curve the cutting edge ever so slightly. In so doing, I've taken too much metal off the corners of this A2, very hard to sharpen blade. Since I'm not at my home shop, I don't have a grinder and tried using various grits of sandpaper and stones. This blade is so hard that all I did was foul it up. So I purchased a special slow speed, water cooled sharpening grinder. With lots of trial and error, I've managed to sharpen an old blade so that the sharpened edge is straight across.

Years ago, I took a class on sharpening and still have three Japanese water stones that I purchased at that time. In that class, I learned how to hand sharpen a blade using a hand operated grinder. Since then, I've tried all kinds of gimmicks and always go back to hand sharpening. Since I took this sharpening class, new alloys have come into the market and I'm having to relearn the process.

All I really want is a really sharp blade to thin my lumber with. So, do I really need to curve my blade? Or is it sufficient to just relieve the corners of the blade? I'm thinking for now, I'm just going to put a nice, straight edge on my blade and take a little metal off the corners to avoid leaving plane iron tacks behind. So, do you just take a couple swipes on each corner on the final honing or is there something else that needs to be done?

Sorry to be such a pest, but this sharpening subject has become more elusive since I've started building guitars and ukes.

[Adam Savage]

Not sure if I may be of any help, but I would advise against knocking off the corners, as unless you are very good at graduating the corners from curved to straight, you will always end up with some kind of tramline. However, as you already have the Veritas honing jig, there is a good solution available in their cambered roller. This acts as a direct replacement for the straight roller the jig comes with. All that is required is a differential pressure applied to the back of the blade as you move it backwards and forwards over your stone. The cambered edge of the blade comes easily as a result.
As to why you get one corner or the other, but not all across, I would second the opinion above suggesting that over-compensation with the lateral adjuster is the cause. Possibly bluntness of blade, if it seems to be skating across the wood.

Lastly, despite being A2 steel, it will be eminently sharpen able with your waterstones.

As it happens, I have just finished a mammoth sharpening session of 6 plane blades (5 1/2, 6 and 7's - all 2 3/8", plus a 2 1/4 Veritas BU iron) T10, A2 and Hock steel, also around 18 chisels (of A2 and O1 old Stanley's and Blue Spruce) and 6 kitchen knives that hadn't been sharpened in over a year (VG10 and carbon steels). On a 300 grit (for a couple of chipped edges), 800, 3000 and 10000 grit waterstones, this lot took me no more than a little under 2 hours - so quickness isn't an issue.

Good luck with the sharpening and planing - it can be both rewarding and frustrating to hand plane wood.

One quick question, and apologies if I missed it in the discussion above, - what type of timber are you trying to plane?

Cheers,
Adam

[Mark Fogleman]

Derek Cohen has an excellent write-up on cambering bevel-up irons here:http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTe ... lades.html
Much different animal than cambering bevel-down irons.

[Ron Daves]

Derek Cohen has an excellent write-up on cambering bevel-up irons here:http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTe ... lades.html
Much different animal than cambering bevel-down irons.

Mark: The sides and back are butternut and the top is Western red cedar. I got the back and sides thinned down using my very sharp Stanley #62. By the time I got to the top, the blade was dull and I started fussing with it until I got it fouled up. So I finished thinning the top with my orbital sander. Then I ordered the grinder.

I was so aggravated by what happened to my #62 blade that I decided to put the Uke project away until I got that blade truly sharp again. Learning to use this Grizzly Wet Grinder has been interesting. I purchased a book on sharpening and read it a couple times. Then I turned on the grinder and got a pretty crooked result until I found a way to orient the blade properly to the grinding surface. I finally got my #62 nicely hollow ground today. Tomorrow, I'll be hand sharpening my blade.

I spent 3-days with a luthier in Fort Bragg, CA a few years back and I went deep into my memory to retrieve his method of cambering a plane blade. In his book, which I'll have to read again, he shows you how to put a "dish" on the back of your finest stone and to use that for the camber. This recollection came to me as I was flattening my stones with a Norton Flattening stone and found the "dish" on one side of my finest stone.

[Michael Lewis]

Brian Burns wrote a very good pamphlet titled "Double Bevel Sharpening", and it used to be available from LMI, maybe still is. It is an education to how a plane works and how to sharpen the irons. In this brief masterwork you will learn some terminology like: cutting angle, relief angle, bed angle, and bevel angle, and how they relate to each other. It would probably be a good idea to contact Brian directly to see if he has any new information in this regard. Come to think of it he may live in Fort Bragg.

[Ron Daves]

i spent three days with Brian Burns in Fort Bragg a few years back. I wasn't sure if I should mention his name here. Since his name has now been mentioned, I have his book. I also have Ron Hock's book titled "The Perfect Edge". I've also read everything I could find on the internet. You would think that, with all that reading, I should be an amazing tool sharpener. However, there's so much stuff out there that I have become overwhelmed with it and, up to a couple days ago, kind of lost my way. I'm back now and, today, I'm making progress. I've studied all those angles that Brian and Ron talk about and it's all very interesting. But for now I'm sharpening my tools using procedures that work for and make sense to me.

[Ron Daves]

I purchased an 8" Grizzly wet grinder. It runs slow and has a strop wheel on one side. Seems like you can set up your blade to be perfectly square to the mounting apparatus and this apparatus can be sighted to be square to the grinding wheel, but, because of some bias I am unconsciously applying, the sharpened edge becomes skewed. I find it necessary to sight the blade often against a square and then apply pressure when grinding only on the part of the blade that is off. Today, I'm going to use the "sight it often" and "apply pressure to avoid skew" tricks. Comments? Anybody have any comments about whether or not it's necessary to use flat stones after using the wet grinder?

[Todd Stock]

The shipbreaker does little other than stabilizing thin blades unless it is set very, very close to the edge, and as chip thickness goes down to something reasonable (.0005-.0007), no benefit...which is why bevel up planes do as well as bevel down, given the same bedding angle.


I'd recommend you go to WoodCentral, Fine Woodworking, and other hand-tool centric sites for sharpening info...much more depth of knowledge. No one here would suggest going to a general woodworking site for info on instrument lacquer or fret dressing, because those tasks and skill sets have minimal overlap with general woodworking and fine cabinetry. By the same token, there is nothing in plane, chisel, or scraper setup, maintenance, and sharpening that is the least bit unique to instrument making, so it makes little sense to constrain yourself to luthiers know, versus the much larger, broader population of hand tool woodworkers outside of luthiery. Not saying not to ask here, but you'll get a lot more info a lot quicker on a decent hand tool site like WoodCentral's hand Tool forum.

Take a pass on the multi-bevel stuff - more work, result is no better than grind at 25/hone at 30, and the systems are Rube Goldberg at best and needlessly expensive. The idea is to take 50-60 seconds to put a new edge on a block plane or chisel, and perhaps a few more seconds for a bench plane if there is a cap iron. If your technique requires more time than that once proficient, get better advice.

[Simon Magennis]

For sharpening I got a Veritas MKII honing guide with the additional slightly rounded roller for crowning blades. I use it with some japanese style waterstones. Works very well. The MKII is far better that some of the cheaper alternatives. Worth the money.

For setting up planes I put a very narrow scrap (sound board off cuts) in the bench clamp and test against that first. I can test the different sectors of the blade and easily see if it is skewed. Then I adjust the lever until I get the blade centered. When I am happy I put a wider piece of scarp in the clamp and test again.

[Jeff Lewis]

I don't use water stones because I don't want any water around my work or on my planes. I use a series of sandpapers on plate glass and can sharpen blades in minutes if not seconds. What is good about the set-up is I can quickly sharpen my blades as I work so that none of my blades are ever dull. I, for the most part, dispensed with the Veritas tool guide, after a while I found I could do quite well without it. I still use it when I have to re-grind a blade. I don't buy into the exact blade angle philosophy. After all, the wood isn't exact and you'll go bug nutz trying to match blade angle to your wood. Exceptions are end grain and highly figured wood.

Remember to lap the back of your blades! My planing quality improved greatly when I figgered that out. Put a mirror shine on there.

I highly recommend the Veritas planes or any WWII vintage Stanley. My 4 1/2 is the best smoother I have and the WWII planes have a little more iron in the casting, which adds to the heft of an already heavy plane.

[Ron Daves]

I'm in trouble, again.
I am trying to thin a Western Red Cedar Uke soundboard with my Stanley #62 plane and I'm getting tearout. The plane iron is sharpened to 25-degrees and I've sharpened another iron to 30-degrees thinking that this might eliminate the tear-out. I haven't yet used this 30, because I'm wondering if I'm even using the right tool. The #62 has a 12-degree bed angle. My Bailey #4 has a 45-degree bed angle, thus a steeper cutting angle. I think I've read that if you are getting tear-out, you should go to a steeper cutting angle. So, even if I sharpen my #62 to 30-degrees, I'm not getting as steep a cutting angle as I'd get if I used the Bailey #4. Advice, please.