Here's a strange question--bringing a new brace chisel to market

[Matthew Lau]

Dear MIMF,

I've been dabbling with making saya/scabbards for kitchen knives.
For that, I've been eying "saya nomi" for the last three months.
It seems to have a number of factors that make it an ideal (if expensive) bracing chisel:
-curved, like the LMI glue chisel.
-bullnosed, won't dig in
-flexible, good sensitivity to the cut
-longer blade than most western chisels.
I just remember a conversation that I had with Gustav Fredell regarding the ideal brace carving chisel, and he'd mentioned all four qualities.

I'm currently in talks with Stu Tierney to possibly commission some saya nomi from Koyamaichi (a *very* skilled chiselmaker in Japan).
If there's enough interest/profit, I'd like to see if it can be made into a stock item instead of a custom one-off. Maybe LMII or Stewmac might have an interest?

Do you think there'll be an interest? Any recommendations on how to proceed?

Disclaimer: I have no financial ties to Stu or Koyamaichi. I just hope that it'll be slightly cheaper if more people are interested in buying them.

[Mario Proulx]

There's nothing I can't do with an excellent straight chisel, so a curved one would be both unnecessary and useless.

Learning to properly use the tools we have is better than inventing crutches...

[Rodger Knox]

Learning to properly use the tools we have is better than inventing crutches...

+1

[Bob Hammond]

Hmm, couldn't you wait to see it/try it, before shooting it down?

[Todd Stock]

Have to agree with Mario that the LMI chisel is at best a crutch. Having used nearly every variety of chisel for brace shaping (and I have a load of chisels in the shop), and having had 10 students in the shop over a five year period (I do 1 year intensives...nothing quick about it), here are my observations:

1. Cumpiano's long-handed flexible paring chisels are suitable only for the shallowest curves bevel-up, and the whippy blades of proper pattern makers have a steep learning curve for the novice. Used bevel-down, they are controllable, but suffer from the same issues as other single-bevel chisels - uncertain tracking in the cut and lack of feel for what the edge is doing.

2. Standard bench chisels used with a hollow ground primary bevel and honed secondary will generate almost any desired curve used bevel-down, but are not that easy to control due to the guide surface oscillating between the primary/secondary bevel join and the rear of the primary bevel. They will do in a pinch, but not really a 'brace' chisel. The tool can be improved by milling a series of bevels at ever -increasing angle...which when taken to the logical termination point is a smooth, convex bevel similar to a properly shaped carving tool's bevel (more on that later). A slight, convex (or at least not concave) bevel on a straight bench chisel makes for much easier use and greater flexibility.

3. LMI brace chisels...an solution which generates a whole new set of problems. The solution that the designer selected provides a nice, long registration surface...for exactly one curve. Shallower curves are no real issue but the tool guides poorly without at least some back-bevel. Want a tighter curve? Get out the blacksmithing tools - not what the tool is designed to do. Had one...hated it...but also sure that someone, somewhere loves the tool and it's peculiar set of limitations. But after owning one for a couple years, I was left wondering why LMI did not just produce a round-bottom plane sans lateral radius, and open the mouth to allow a hogging cut to start...maybe even a mini Stanley radius plane.

OK - all of the above work...just not all that well without some serious mods.

The remaining option is to do what carvers have done for centuries...a flat chisel with two low-angle (less than 15 degrees or so) opposing, CONVEX, opposing bevels. This is a tool that carvers use to generate a wide range of concave and convex, flat curves...kinda like the bevels and scallops of a brace. It's also the tool that caver use to quickly cut away excess material to get to a V or U shaped profile. As to suitability for guitar making, after running through a variety of options with my students, the carving chisel was the overwhelming favorite for brace work, which makes sense, given that this is a carving task. The convex grind and hone of the bevels allows the registration point to be smoothly adjusted from just behind the tip to near the start of the bevel with minor change in pressure...yielding just about any convex or concave curve of use to luthiers. This same property allows the luthier to apply enough pressure to keep adverse grain from splitting out ahead of the edge (although not nearly as effectively as with a plane).

What I use: 10, 12, and 16mm #1 double bevel carving chisel (flat or straight in the European system of designating carving tools)

What I want: Something close to what the Martin factory guys and gals use - 10"-12" blade with 5" handle, 3/4" to 7/8" width, and 3/16" to 1/4" thick with long, slightly convex double bevels. Now that would be a proper brace carving chisel.

Summary: It's called 'brace CARVING' for a reason - because we ARE carving, and while just about anything will work to scallop and taper, and carving tools generate significantly more flexibility in guiding the cutting edge than bench, firmers, or various types of single bevel tools.

[Clay Schaeffer]

Hi Matthew,
If you have it made, and have a good story line, and the price is high enough, someone will buy it. Amateur woodworkers spend thousands of dollars on tools to build hundreds of dollars worth of product. It has always been this way, as the "gents" tools and chests can attest. It may be a fine tool and some may find it ideal for brace carving.

[Ryan Mazzocco]

I gotta say, I'm a bit surprised. I understand that many folks here have methods/tools they prefer and that they have used for years and it's what seems best to them. And that's cool. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. but aren't we always discussing, researching, testing and finding new ways of doing things? Are we all still using a hot pipe heated on a stove? I'm sure some of you are, and if that's the way you like it then keep doing it. But some people are using silicone heat blankets now. Is that a crutch? I guess some would say it is. Others just think it's a great new tool that we didn't used to have and are so glad to have it now. but the response here seems to be, 'We already have the best tools that there could possibly ever be, but go ahead and design it because there will probably be plenty of people with more money than sense (or lack of skill to adequately operate the right tool) and maybe they will buy your crutch.'

Hmm, couldn't you wait to see it/try it, before shooting it down?

Well said Bob.

[Todd Stock]

...
It seems to have a number of factors that make it an ideal (if expensive) bracing chisel:
-curved, like the LMI glue chisel.
-bullnosed, won't dig in
-flexible, good sensitivity to the cut
-longer blade than most western chisels.
I just remember a conversation that I had with Gustav Fredell regarding the ideal brace carving chisel, and he'd mentioned all four qualities.
...
Do you think there'll be an interest? Any recommendations on how to proceed?

I can see some room for complaint if the responses had been along the lines of inane encouragement or knee-jerk condemnation (e.g., "Go for it!", "Not interested", or "Hate it!"), but instead, the OP got what he wanted - critical review of his design criteria, good feedback on degree of interest , and suggestions on how to proceed. Given the OP's going-in sample size for his survey of great American brace carving chisel characteristics was unity, I suspect he had some expectation that his request might generate useful discussion of what others consider important features for a carving chisel. Sure - my response was not quite kick pleat skirt and pom-poms, but I don't think the OP was as interested in positive affirmations as he was in critical review and actionable insights re: his ideas.

More useful info? I don't find bullnose chisels of sufficient utility to warrant the added fuss in sharpening and honing on a single bevel tool, and don't see that much of an advantage to the novice re: avoiding the corners of a straight-edged tool gouging the plate. A tool just wider than the widest brace stock used will be as effective as easing the corners or bullnosing (but making the tool narrower than a more skilled craftsman might desire), and in any case, a few minor excursions into the top wood is usually reason enough for a student to learn to level the tool before feathering the brace ends.

Also have to agree with the fact that general woodworking is filled with gimmicky tools that sell in big numbers...there will always be aspiring craftsman that will throw dollars at a problem versus developing the necessary skill set, so most of us end up with at least a few tools that are more a reflection of our insecurities than they are reasoned purchases.

[Clay Schaeffer]

"'We already have the best tools that there could possibly ever be, but go ahead and design it because there will probably be plenty of people with more money than sense (or lack of skill to adequately operate the right tool) and maybe they will buy your crutch.'"

Hi Ryan,
I suppose my post may have come off that way, and to some small extent that was intended. Not to be extremely negative, but the tool as spec'ed would (for the most part) find a market with amateurs who have more disposable income than the average professional woodworker. I think that should be Matthew's target market and he should market to them. Some of us still find our tools at the fleas ( I recently picked up a rosewood handled Stanley #5 for $1) and for us this would be an extravagance. But for those who have the money this might be a fine tool, as I mentioned.

[Mark Fogleman]

My only paring chisel is an old German one which has a slight outside curve, leaving ~2" of the sharp end of the ~6" blade flat and a very slight up-bend at the socket/blade junction. $5 at an MWTCA meet. Yep...you could say I'm a spoiled Yuppie for having a specialty chisel, more than one hammer, 5-6 sizes of screwdrivers, 4 handplanes, etc but someone a long time ago modified this chisel to do a job and I use it more than any other chisel I have.

As far as the OP's request for free advice...Don't market it as a "Brace" chisel. Market it as a curved paring chisel and plan to give up lots of margin if you decide to sign on a distributor/dealers. Your potential market grows from thousands to millions.

[Matthew Lau]

I find it sort of funny to see these replies, as it's the exact things that I would have thought a year ago (particularly Mario's point).

This is just some goofy idea that I got after opening my big, fat mouth and promising a sushi chef to make a saya for his knife--and then stidying katana saya--and then making one. I'd never used the LMI glue clearing chisel, as I'd never seen the point--just seemed like an awkward thing.

However, making a saya changed things. Note: a saya is very different from a D-35, but did open my eyes to the difference in control the right tool can make.

Regarding the tool--again, I'm not planning on making any money, just sniffing out other markets thaan rabid knife, katana-nuts (a limited market).

Re: usefulness. I'm planning to loan it to some big boys to test for me: Michihiro Matsuda, Ervin Somogyi, Kathy Matsushita. I don't have time or space to build, but I can do some saya.

Anyways, it's a crazy idea. I didn't hear back from Stu yet. I'm busy tweaking my new website and trying to figure out marketing for my dental office.

[Matthew Lau]

Clay,

You're speaking to the choir. Aside from my fret crowning files, most of my tools are second or third hand. I have some "factory second' Lee Valley planes, but it was a luxury that I saved up for after spending 5days trying to lap a Indian-made POS.
I've also admired your work and ingenuity for a long time...I just don't have the mental energy to do anything interesting atm.

Todd,

Coincidentally, that's pretty much the description of this saya nomi. It's got one very shallow, rounded convex bevel on the bottom and a bullnose cutting surface. Just one end is favored as the shaft is angled just enough not to bang knuckles on the work.


Personally, I was just going to make myself some finger planes for brace carving.
I'll look into carving chisels too--any recommendations?

[Greg Martin]

Id make some and send them to luthiery schools for hands on testing and review.maybe select a few guys on you tube send them one ,ask them to use it and review it online.if its worthy it will be wanted by others.
We take many things for granted in the world of the internet and info sharing. It was only 150 years ago that luthiery was a secretive society of mystical artists and if they gave out their secrets they would lose business to the competitor , next door. Some of us have embraced the sharing of trade info some not so much. As far as reiventing the wheel,mouse trap or brace chisel,I say why not give it a go, im not an experienced brace carver but want to be ,so Ill buy a new tool if it seems logical and well made,just to see how it works and if I like it if not ill give it to some one else,not because I have moneys to burn but the quest for that perfect guitar cost money either way.

[Joel Nowland]

I don't see a curved chisel at LMI but I see one one at StewMac.

The curved Stew Mac chisel is all wrong from my perspective. I tried a lot of different chisel for the first 6 years or so of brace carving and have been using the same design for about 12 years .

When I carve braces I use a 1-1/4 wide short blade chisel, does not have to be but mine just so happens to be, hand made in Japan. A short blade butt chisel of any brand would work just as well. When I cut I push on the shoulder of the chisel with my left thumb pushing forward and sideways in a slicing action. A narrow chisel, curved or not, is not the right design, IMO.

IMO, the perfect brace shaving chisel is, straight, Short bladed, short handles and about an 1-1/4' wide.

Joel

[Matthew Lau]

Sorry to revive a dead thread.

I bought the saya-nomi from Japan Woodworker a few months back, but only got to use it two Saturday nights ago (I get very little free time nowadays--literally, just Satuday nights).

I will report---a saya nomi is a HORRIBLE brace chisel.
However, it is astoundingly great for saya...just horrible for anything else.

[Todd Stock]

There is a reason why certain chisel designs end up being used for certain tasks. Sure - I can use a butt chisel for carving, but it's not going to work as well for some bracing stuff as something that is purpose-built for carving.

[Stephen Neal Saqui]

There's nothing I can't do with an excellent straight chisel, so a curved one would be both unnecessary and useless.

Learning to properly use the tools we have is better than inventing crutches...

It's amazing to me how few chisels reside in the bench rack that are used daily. And how many reside in the tool chest, rarely seeing the light of day.