Viola! Alain Bieber are you lurking?

[Alain Bieber]

Bill, you found the Field document and I thank you . Hello to you and Suzan .Hope you are well.

[Alain Bieber]

Stephen,
Two points. One, Bouchet suppressed the closing bars when the soul bar was introduced. Second, he almost always braced a little less strongly the bass side.
Very nice work of yours, as usual.

[Bill Raymond]

Alain, thanks for mentioning the Field article. My interest in Bouchet was rekindled by Stephen's enquiry. I skimmed the article and found it most illuminating. I've sent you a PM so as not to burden the forum with personal communications that are not topic related.

Stephen, if you do a search for "Robert Bouchet bar", you should find a paper on the different vibration modes with bars of different sizes. A technical paper that discusses Eigenmodes and stuff, if you are interested in that sort of approach.

[Stephen Faulk]

Well this guitar with the retro installed Bouchet bar is quite fun. It's mixed bag, it made it stronger in some ways a bit less potent in others. Overall an improvement, but it radically changed the character in terms of feel under the right hand.

I read the blog entry by Cumpiano where he describes Bream asking Jeff Elliot to remove the bar from his Bouchet. It does not go int to detail whether he removed the whole thing or cut it down in half or less.

Stil interested in making the five fan with the bar. My intuition about this kind of design is that you have little margin to work with to hit it right on. Normal fan braced guitars have some latitude with bracing, I think you probably get a bigger window of what will work and the Bouchet design is really touchy. That is just my impression after fitting out this particular guitar. It might get better over the next weeks.

[Jason Rodgers]

If you found the bar you installed was a bit too stiff in its current dimensions, would you consider reaching in to gradually shave it down until you liked what you heard and felt?

[Alain Bieber]

Stephen,
My feeling is that your First Bouchet bar could be on the strong side . It is vanishing more progressively at both ends. If you decide to shave, do it a little more on the bass side. Good luck.

[Stephen Faulk]

Alain,
Thank you for the help. So I did clip the outside of the bar a bit on both treble and bass sides. Just 3" long section that cut 1/4" deep off in a taper. Next time I'll try to make a more exact Bouchet from a plan.

The part that is interesting, ( on the plan I've been looking at ) his fans are triangular in section, rather meager and leave a lot of open space between the bridge and the edge of the lower bout. And without the cut of bars at the bottom near the tail block. Then he adds the horizontal bar, which seems to be the main event. As they stand alone the fans look to make the top under braced, not enough support, but the bar is then picking up the control of the cross grain structure and movement. This is interesting because it instinctually tells me that the bridge is really free to move in the long grain direction and has more discipline in the cross grain direction. I think it will make this touchy, but if you can get it right has the potential to make a very nice sound.

The problem I can feel is making it consistent all around the fingerboard. Or that my second guessing after the fact bar addition has made this an issue. I'm eager to try Bouchet's original idea.

[Alain Bieber]

Stephen,
The main "French masters", long after R.B. have, I think, all departed from the RB original designs, but the complete set of their more recent designs kept some ideas of changing the amount of transverse compared with longitudinal rigidity to a slight benefit of the transverse one. They are not very well known abroad except maybe Field and Fanton , but a little bunch of new guys are now also producing hi-level concert guitars here. One might begin to speak of a new "french touch" in classical guitar building. Most quoted names are Rohé, Ligier, and a pair of others that I always forget.
A good paper exposed recently the Field's conception, considered now as the best guy in town, in rather precise ways that delighted me. The feeling of "secrecy" seems to be less than, before. In a "French language only" Magazine alas.
My professional friend will lend me this document in a few days. Looks interesting in the perspective of this discussion.

You certainly remember that the Bouchet "middle transverse" bar was not quarter sawn but flat sawn to give, at that level, less transverse rigidity. I see you have selected a bold an interestin way to have that feature too on you design.

[Stephen Faulk]

Alain,

Please share the document on the new French makers if you can. Yes I oriented the transverse bar on the flat grain, it makes sense. I've made ouds and and lutes and repairs on them and in those instruments flat grain is normal. I use flat gain and vertical grain on regular transverse bars at the sound hole too. At that dimension there is not a lot of difference in deflection really. I've also been experimenting with upward curved lower transverse brace, like a smile. As on Hauser II guitars, but curved instead of Vee shaped.

[Alain Bieber]

The paper on D.Field style shows that he is now staying under a double influence. One, the traditional romantic "french design" for instance Louis Pons as shown by the American lutherie plan N° 63 . Two, the Fleta family design, but treated in a much lighter way. Also, the ribs are made heavier , in contrast, by a very dense set of small transverse bars.