Here is your chance to pick on me, I'm thinking about making a steel string, *GASP*

[Stephen Faulk]

I have a sceme to build a Terz steel string. Any admonitions, kibitzing or advice? I've never built a steel string regular guitar.

[Mark Swanson]

Is a Terz a "regular guitar"?

[Jason Rodgers]

Is a Terz a "regular guitar"?

Yeah, we're gonna have a good time here... where's Chuck?... and my bowl of popcorn?

[Stephen Faulk]

Terz.

I start make one on Terzday, finish on Saturzday.

[Ryan Mazzocco]

wow. that's a quick terz-around.

[Bryan Bear]

You might want to ask a moderator to clean up this thread before it festerz. I've seen these discussions get out hand; you want to get a handle on it now while it is still small scale.

[Rodger Knox]

Terz.

I start make one on Terzday, finish on Saturzday.

That's me, too. Terzday was in 2013 and Saturzday was in 2015.

[Clay Schaeffer]

I've built some double strung tenors tuned in the terz range ( G D a e ). S.L. 22 3/4 inches, LG 3/4 size body but 4 inches deep. They have worked pretty well. The two gut strung terz guitars I have (Bay State and Washburn ) are smaller yet. The sound might be more mandola or (Gibson) tenor lute like, if an instrument of that size was strung in steel.

[Stephen Faulk]

Hello Clay!

Thanks maybe you can help. My shop pay scale is not very interzresting, but the jokes are!

Seriously, I just built a Requinto with nylon strings and I am aiming to use the same body shape for a steel string. Here's the Requinto about the same size as your terz.

I was also thinking of using some fish glue. Oh yeas.

[Clay Schaeffer]

Here is a picture of one of the double strung tenors. Not my best effort, but sounds nice.

[Stephen Neal Saqui]

I'd pass on the fish glue, it has a tendency to weaken in time...you want your instrument to last? There's been a tendency in recent years to avoid Titebond glue. I've read knowledgeable people saying "throw your Titebond in the trash"...but that is hogwash. Titebond is fantastic for building steel stringed guitars. Why? Because it's incredibly strong yet you can take it apart if you need to. And you don't have to fuss with hot hide glue. I use hot animal glue in repair and restoration where necessary.

If you want to build the same shape, by all means use a dovetail joint and build the neck separate! This way you can always change the neck angle with a reset if, God forbid, you get the angle wrong or if it changes in the future. Please don't build a steel string using classical guitar methods...it ain't the same animal!

[Brad Heinzen]

I can't say anything, Stephen. I've gone over to the dark side a few times myself. No advice except to say that I found the shorter scale SS guitars to be a bit more forgiving in structural terms (compared to longer scale SS guitars anyway). The compensation issues are magnified relative to CG's, especially with the shorter scale. I'd go with a thick, compensated saddle if you can pull it off with the tuning you're planning. It helped me to have some extra thickness to play with. I've only used lower tension strings on the few that I built.

I've always wanted to build a Cuban tres, but just haven't gotten to it yet. Someday...

[Stephen Neal Saqui]

Brad, make that Cuban Tres and just maybe I'll make the Brazilian Cavaquinho I've alway wanted to make!

[Wayne Brown]

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Stephen, I built a Terz guitar last year and gave it to my grandson for Christmas. I used the Scott Antes plan in general. The plan seems to be overbuilt, so I changed the x-brace angle, used 1/4" braces and scalloped. Also used a carbon fiber rod in the neck. And a dovetail neck joint. In standard tuning, the guitar does not respond well but when tuned up 1 to 1 1/2 steps it becomes more responsive Good luck on your endeavor ( the steel string world).

[Stephen Faulk]

I'd pass on the fish glue, it has a tendency to weaken in time...you want your instrument to last? There's been a tendency in recent years to avoid Titebond glue. I've read knowledgeable people saying "throw your Titebond in the trash"...but that is hogwash. Titebond is fantastic for building steel stringed guitars. Why? Because it's incredibly strong yet you can take it apart if you need to. And you don't have to fuss with hot hide glue. I use hot animal glue in repair and restoration where necessary.

If you want to build the same shape, by all means use a dovetail joint and build the neck separate! This way you can always change the neck angle with a reset if, God forbid, you get the angle wrong or if it changes in the future. Please don't build a steel string using classical guitar methods...it ain't the same animal!

I'm one of those who say throw Titebond on the trash. HAHAHA But I don't actually because I use it for several things, but mainly use hide glue.

I'm going to build a one of my small classical shapes, but I'll either bolt the neck on or use spline joint or a bolted spline. I'm pretty dumber, but not dumber enough to use a slotted heel on a steel string these days. I have converted both classical and steel strings built with Spanish heels over to spline joint and blot on necks in repair work.

Fish glue..Just trolling that one by to trying to get a rise out of Chuck.

____________________

Brad, Wayne, hello! I will need some eyeballs on the brace set up, when I get it to that stage you can help. I have a few things to finish before I can get further into the Terz.

The terz might be one off, in general I'm trying to come up with a small steel string model that is a not super difficult to build, but could be decorated if need be. I might even be inclined to buy a premade neck, but the first few I'll make them.

[Jason Rodgers]

Fish glue..Just trolling that one by to trying to get a rise out of Chuck.

I love fish glue. I only use fish, and a little CA now and then.

The terz might be one off, in general I'm trying to come up with a small steel string model that is a not super difficult to build, but could be decorated if need be. I might even be inclined to buy a premade neck, but the first few I'll make them.

Do you have a particular market (in Japan?) that is looking for steel string terz or 3/4 size guitars? If you're going to all this trouble, you must have something in mind.

[Stephen Faulk]

Yeah, there is a surfboard maker here and he charges a lot ( materials are expensive) so I am going to make a terz guitar and send it to him via a third party and say if you like it trade me for custom long board. If he does not want it he'll send it back, if he likes it he'll make a board for me. I ask him last summer if he likes nylon string guitars or steel strings and he likes the later.

I was going to make another Requinto, but realized that was crazy because the first one was hard to sell, there's a dearth of corrida bands here, surprise, no? So it went to a jazz player in the US who of all things had written a three movement suite for requinto! But now I have a second requinto sketched out and I can't change the rib length or back size to make a classical because my board stretcher is broken.

[Brad Heinzen]

I'm not going to take the fish glue bait anymore either. I now have ten years of fish glue guitars out there, and still don't know what the big deal is.

I also use one of my small classical bodies for SS guitars. It's close to a 00 size, and works really well for both CG's and SS's. I made a few SS's that were based on a small SH body shape, but didn't like them very much. One thing about the 00 size is that you can go pretty light on the bracing, use light gauge strings, and end up with a SS that plays well with fingers. You haven't seen one of my CG's in that smaller size, Stephen, but they're a blast to play. Mel W tried one, and really liked it.

[Stephen Faulk]

Brad,

The last time I saw one of your classicals it was pretty nice, I'm sure your smaller ones are terrific. I've gone a small plantilla also and I'm focusing on two plantillas one is my old Santos plantilla that i use for flamencos and the other is one I drew in 2006 and still use. it's 18-1/2" long, 14" wide in lower bout 9 -1/4 waist - and I think about 12 and change in the upper bout. It makes a great guitar with a shallow body and a heavy braced top. I've been making them with a Hauser-ish parabolic five fans. really fun. I kept one for myself.

Actually I need to get some fish glue, I want to use it for glue blocks. I'm fine with it, it's just a running joke.....maybe an out of breath joke.

I don't know if you know Stewart Port, but I worked for him for a year about 5 years ago. He does high quality work, he had me doing frets and nuts & saddles on guitars after he did neck resets and stuff. So I got a lot of time in on steel string set up over seen by an expert. It was nice because he would still consult with my on Spanish/classical work, but taught me a hell of a lot about steel string set up, etc. But I have never built one- yet. I hope my time in his shop comes through in the work.

Reapir is bit frustrating where I am now because most players use some kind of factory Dread, it's ubiquitous. That is to say, they are usually under played and robust enough to not need much care, bad for repair. ( I like those abusive Americans who break stuff in bar fights and bring it the next day cap in hand.) I finally found out why about a month ago. The traditional popular music is called Enka, it's like slow folk songs about lost loves, cheaters, fishermen who stay at sea and lose at love, widows waiting for lost seamen to return and lament that they either shipwrecked and died, or went to another port to be with another girl. Stuff like that. The nylon string guitar is associated with this music and younger generations don't want to be in enka bands or identify with enka. They like rap, blues, jazz and all kinds of stuff. Enka is for older people, even though there are younger singers who do the art. It's the epitome of crooning, but in pentatonic melodies, parallel fifths and portamento holidays allowed! So the Dreadnaught is the outlaw yanquee signifier that you are not into Enka, or so I am told by a notable ukulele dealer.


So a small SS with light gauge that is fun to play could get some traction here. There are makers here doing that already, but a "go past the dread" awakening has not fully happened yet, it seems to me. Something simple, clean, tasty, walnut, mahogany/sitka - small body, I can see how it would go over well. I could even give dread trade ins and have a bonfire.

BTW I really miss dropping on on Mel, he always has fun projects happening. Tell him hello.

[Clay Schaeffer]

Hi Stephen,
If you don't mind adding to your plantillas, you might want to consider the Martin size 1. It makes a nice small bodied guitar with a full size sound. I think the added length(19 in.) supports the low notes better than shorter bodied guitars, while the narrower body (12 3/4 in. L.B.) gives them the small guitar feel. They can be built long scale (25 1/2 inches) or short scale (24.9 inches) and still sound good. Double O's are good too, but feel about the same as a full size classical and require about the same size wood.