Un-fixable buzz on SCGC OM - ArrrrrGH!!

[Chuck Tweedy]

Hey all, I'm absolutely going crazy trying to fix this guitar and the buzz is not changing at ALL!
I've filed the frets flat with the strings off - used the sharpie trick and have cleared every fret.
I've raised the action and made sure there is sufficient relief.
I've used Evan Gluck's trick of sanding the frets with an under-string tool - and I can see that all the frets have been hit by this method.

I have NEVER had this much trouble with a buzz. All the guitars I've built or repaired have always responded in a rational way to fixing buzzes.

At this point I can only try to raise the action higher.

I have documented my sad state on this little project HERE http://youtu.be/KQs8ub4EaTY

Please ask questions - I'm too tired right now to go over all the details: which frets it buzzes on, action height, etc...
bleh!

[Jason Rodgers]

I shall ask questions:
- Have you touched the truss rod? Is it rattling in its slot? Is the nut loose on the end of the rod?
- Anything going on behind the nut? Behind the saddle? Loose nut or saddle?
- Loose fret? Loose brace? Loose piece of trim?
- Does the buzz always sound the same, like at the same frequency? Could there be a crack somewhere that buzzes?
- Does it have electronics? Could a lead wire be buzzing against the side, or the battery or preamp have something rattling?

Will watch video next...

[Peter Wilcox]

Have you changed the strings?

[Michael Lewis]

Chuck, as you have addressed the fret tops you can rest assured they are not the issue, so it must be something else. There are many types of buzzes from string rattle to loose parts, so what does it sound like?

Without having heard your noise I can only suggest places to look for a cause: loose parts on tuning machines, strings too low in the nut causing 'back buzz' between a fretted note and the nut, misshapen slot(s) in nut or saddle, cracked bridge, loose brace, loose nut on pick up jack, loose strap button.

Can you cause the sound to happen by tapping or bumping the instrument? Use the pad of a finger, the heel of your hand, or a knuckle. Or does the offending sound only happen when being played?

[John Steele]

Hi there;
Have you tried this:
http://frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Tec ... intro.html
Excellent diagnoses
Cheers
John

[Stephen Neal Saqui]

Chuck,

I've read all the above and have observations and suggestions. I've also watched the video.

1. Knock on the back of the neck. If the rod doesn't fit the slot properly it may buzz...when knocking on the neck, mute the strings. If it doesn't rattle then loosen the rod and try knocking again. If you hear rattling report it to me (us) and I can help you fix it.

2. Regardless of the above, in the video you were not playing the instrument, you were demonstrating a buzz. This is important because the guitar may play just fine in the owner's hands...but when you start to make it buzz, it will buzz! Excuse me if this sounds dumb but it's a very common occurrence so try to eliminate it as an element.

3. The fact that the buzz works over long areas on the 1st and 2nd strings leads me to think there may be a twist in the neck which causes the treble side to have a slight back bow. Investigate that. Site down the neck from the head end and compare it's straightness on each side. If the treble side looks bowed back then loosen the rod just enough to straighten the treble side. Then observe the bass side. If it has a forward bow, that ain't bad because you have relief for the larger string amplitude on the bass side.

4. How does the owner play? This goes along with string attack (above). Is it really an issue?

5. Is the saddle worn on those two strings? Could there be a "sitar" effect with the saddle being worn and not having a clear point that those strings leave from?

Hope that helps.
Stephen

[Chuck Tweedy]

Thanks for the replys - this is what I needed. Specifically, thanks Michael for this comment:

Chuck, as you have addressed the fret tops you can rest assured they are not the issue,...

Because I was just obsessing on the frets - though I know better.

I'll address everyone's suggestion when I get time - hopefully tonight - but I can't promise promise a prompt reply.
Stay tuned...

[Chuck Tweedy]

Okay...
Knocked all over the instrument - nothing. Not the truss rod, not the tuners, nothing in the headstock, no loose braces, no cracks, no loose trim. Seems solid.
There is a K&K pickup system, but the sensors are well glued down.
It could be the wires that hand down to the back of the guitar when it is lying on its back (the way I've been testing it).
The neck does not appear to be warped - I can see equal relief down both edges when I sight down the neck.
The saddle has a nasty notch under the E string, but that string has no problems, so I'm not touching that. At my offending strings it appears to be fine (it is bone).

Now ... I don't play very well, but it does not seem to have the buzz nearly as much when played in the normal position. There are 2 spots where it seems to be susceptible to buzz, but not so much.

I think I may have the owner see if he sees any problems with it., I may be over thinking this.

[Michael Lewis]

Chuck, does the noise appear at specific frequencies? Or is it more related to an area of the fingerboard?

Regarding relief, I have taken to using a straight edge and feeler gauges because sighting the frets can be so misleading. You need somewhere between .004" and .012" depending on the guitar and the degree of aggressiveness in your attack. The deepest part of the relief is around the 7th fret, and it should taper off to nothing at each end of the board, or more probably at the body joint for that end of the fingerboard.

Again, what about 'back buzz'? Fret each string between 4th and 5th frets and look for just barely clearance at the first fret. If the string touches the fret it can be excited by a frequency and rattle between the fretted position and the nut. This is a fairly common occurrence with very low actions.

Are any of the strings going from the nut to the string posts touching any other posts?

[Joshua Levin-Epstein]

Chuck,

Is the radius of the saddle correct? That the two center strings buzz (and the outside ones less so) makes me think the radius is too flat.

[Chuck Tweedy]

Michael,
The relief is perfect as far as I can tell - 0.015" at 7th fret. Tapers off nice and gradual. A bit high, but that was done to get rid of the problem. Maybe I should tighten it.
The noise appears on a area of the FB from about frets 5-9 on strings 3 & 4. Not frequency specific - location specific.
Not a back buzz - checked that a while ago.
Muting the strings past the nut with loose tape does nothing, and the strings run free

Joshua,
Good question, but the action changes smoothly from just over 1/16" at e to 7/64" at E.
Looks great to me.

BTW - nothing I have done has changed anything - this buzz has been on the instrument since I started checking in this area.
Everything looks great, and nothing changes. :-/

Customer will come by tonight.

[Joshua Levin-Epstein]

Chuck,

I'm newly converted to radius gauges, so I would measure to make sure. That being said, do the buzzes occur when the guitar is in playing position?

I hesitate to make suggestions here , as most everyone has more experience than me, but...

I would get the neck straight (as you pondered) and raise the action (and check the radius).

I'm going back to my corner now.

[Chuck Tweedy]

Joshua, I think those are perfectly rational suggestions and if the customer does not go away happy this evening, I think I will give that approach a shot.
Except I will give the neck "correct" relief rather than "straight".

[Chuck Tweedy]

Ding Dong, the witch is gone, the wicked guitar is GONE!!

It sounded fine when he played it - sounded great, actually. I did a good job.

[Michael Lewis]

The heat is off! Well, more 'food' for thought in your ramblings around your shop. One truth I learned in the 60s is that you can make any guitar buzz if you try hard enough (steels excepted). Congratulations, Chuck.

[Chuck Tweedy]

I'll remember that: Michael learned how to get a good buzz in the 60's

Granted, I still think it buzzed a bit too easy there in the middle of the FB. It will be food for thought though - because I'm going to pay a LOT more attention to how other instruments act in that same situation. Right now I have nothing to try it on - and I couldn't be happier about that fact.

[Jason Rodgers]

Gee, this ended sort of anticlimactically!

So did position - flat on the bench vs. playing - really make that much difference?! Can the neck's own weight pull it back against string tension juuuuust enough to cause a buzz? I mean, I've read of such things, but I guess this dramatic case proves it.

Now, QUICK, delete this thread and all evidence of its existence so your customer never finds it! You don't want him to believe you ever doubted yourself!

[Chuck Tweedy]

Nah - this is a customer-free zone.

[Randy Roberts]

I think entirely too little attention was paid to the roll that sprayed shellac may have had in contributing to the problems you delineated in this thread.
I believe the buzz may have been a clear sign to repent.

[Chuck Tweedy]

True, Randy ... true.
I guess it is too early to rule-out Karma as a root cause.