tremolo with all the 5 springs still lifting, and other issues...

[Leandro Muñoz]

Hello, Wanted to begin thanking the forum, and off course all the people, for giving that much help and info on so many different things

So, the matter is as it goes on the subject: all 5 springs put and the tension on the strings is still lifting the bridge plate, a little, I in fact reduced it some 2 mm (getting the screws of the mounting claw all possibly close to the wood), but it is still not parallel and my headache is on the intonation which was ok some weeks ago: now 12 fret harmonics are quite uneven. Have to ask if humidity may have taken part as the 3 first strings came a little darkened the other day I took the guitar out.

Have got to say the guitar is made by myself, and that it has 12 16 24p 32 44 56 gauge strings, and a gotoh tremolo strat type bridge with graph-tech saddles(polymer).

So, the first question has to be relating the gauges to the tension, and whether you can point out some ways for preventing the lifting, (putting aside some stronger springs).

The second question is about the fact that I designed the guitar having in mind a hole tone detuning for all the strings. After going through all the process didnt ever thought about having to put the length scale a little further because of the hole tone issue, but the fact is that 6th string saddle is completely at the further possible position tuned on normal tuning.... If I move the bridge some 4mm down from the neck...? these two issues:
1. Will more length imply more tension given to the springs on the tremolo? It may seem obvious but please answer!!
2. Must I put wood on the space left because of the moving? between tremolo block and wood going up towards the mounting claw.

I'd appreciate all ideas and thoughts, and sorry if too naive.... (have to ask if you think photos necessary) take care

[Greg Robinson]

Hi Leandro, welcome to the new MIMForum!

Ok, I will start with a few questions. Is the spring cavity of normal dimensions? If it is short, you may not be able to stretch them enough to balance the string tension. If it is of the normal size, maybe you just happened to get some lower tension springs than normal. It is difficult to predict what you will receive from suppliers sometimes, as they normally don't provide information on those details. You may simply need to get stronger springs, which are available from a few sources.

Onto your intonation problems. When you placed the bridge, did you set the saddles all the way forward when measuring, and allow for some compensation factor? In order to pitch correctly across the whole neck, the scale will always need to be longer than the theoretical scale length, to account for string stiffness and action effects.

By the way, the Stratocaster type tremolo was originally intended to be floating, as you have it now, so that you are able to bend notes up as well as down, although many people prefer this style of bridge to sit against the body. One thing that is worth noting is that comparing the two different setups, when the bridge is floating, the action is raised and the scale length is shortened, relative to it being flat on the body, which might be part of your intonation problem if you never intended for the bridge to be floating.

Now, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by hole tone, do you mean you want to be able to drop the tremolo a WHOLE tone? That should not be a problem, even with a floating tremolo that has a (slightly) smaller range of travel. Or do you mean that you have the guitar tuned to D rather than standard E?

With regards to your question about tension, yes, if you increase the scale length and use the same gauge strings tuned to the same pitch, the tension will increase. But with the amounts you are talking about (enough of an increase for compensation), the difference is almost negligable.

About needing extra wood at the front of the tremolo cavity, I'm not sure. It depends if you still have enough wood left to hold the mounting screws or studs with the bridge in its new position. A photo would help, as well as an indication of how far back you intend to move it.

Anyway, some things to think about.

[Mark Wybierala]

Is this a two post modern trem or a six-screw vintage trem?

[Mark Swanson]

You are using a heavier gauge set, and from what I think I read, you are also using an alternate tuning. It sounds like you have a very high pull at the bridge and you may need stronger springs.

[Mark Wybierala]

If you have a two point trem, try elevating the pivot posts and lowering the saddles if you have the adjustment available on the saddle height adjustment screws. Doing this changes the amount of leverage the strings have by putting them closer to the pivot point.

[Mark Wybierala]

If your bridge placement is okay. your intonation problem can be caused by the pickups being too close to te strings. Lower all of the pickups as far as you can without them coming off the adjustment screws and recheck your intonation from the beginning.

Understand that it is the magnetism of the pickup that causes the problem and the magnetism is always there. The position of the selector switch has nothing to do with whether or not a pickup will do this. The problem is most common when fretting the low E-string in the upper fret areas but can cause problems with some of the other strings and especially if you have pickups with some of the odd staggered pole pieces of vintage pickups or reissue pickups. Just lower all of the pickups and try to set the intonation again. If you can now set the intonation, elevate the pickups one at a time and check for intonation problems while doing so.

[Leandro Muñoz]

Greg, Thank you for being so thoroughgoing, and also for the welcome!


on the next photo, you can see it goes on the normal dimensions, 100mm. I bought the tremolo kit from stewart macdonalds, the traditional one...
the red line is about the space I'm asking about, when I refer to add more wood, when I move it down.


this next photo shows the amount of space I'm thinking to get it back: 4mm, but I'd like you to say if it would be correct to leave the tremolo without that extra space for moving... trem block 13mm and hole size was 17 as I checked... I worked with the Martin Koch dimensions.


the amount of lifting, maybe insignificant, but all 5 springs! and I had it with only 4 before and was parallel


As for the compensation factor, the scale is 635mm and I have 630 by the back of the screws, having the 635 just on the place for the saddles all the way up... what you are saying is that I should have left more, shouldnt?


You guess right about the tone on the second part, I'd like a D, maybe even a C, now that I think about it, should I have considered this? how?

Is this a two post modern trem or a six-screw vintage trem?

Thanks Mark for the question, it is indeed a traditional with 6 screws, and thanks for all the good tips, which I'll have in mind when I finish winding the magnetic pickups.... but as the photo shows, I'm with an acoustic preamp from graph-tech right now... also can't do what you say as it is a 6 screw...


thank you all, waiting for your answers have a good day

[Mark Wybierala]

If your bridge mounting screws are too tight, they will cause the bridge to lift. However, the amount of lift that I see in your photos is slightly less than the amount of lift recommended by the Fender setup guide and typically, these bridges are designed to be in this position. Erlewine suggests that you back out all six screws and only use the the two end screws to establish the limit of the bridge being held down or rather, adjust the two end screws downward until the cause the bridge to lift ever so slightly and then back them out 1/2 of a turn from that. The remaining four screws remain slightly higher with the heads not touching the bridge at all. I have seen examples of these bridge mounting screws where the shaft under the screw head is misformed and this could cause a bridge to lift.

If you really have an intonation issue from too short a string length, It is easier to shim the neck outward by .1" than to relocate your bridge. Drill and dowel your existing neck bolt holes as needed or plug and redrill the heel of the neck.

[Leandro Muñoz]

Mark, thanks again, I'll be following those Erlwine steps. I did went with the two outer but maybe the center ones are too deep... the overall matter was that some weeks before I took the guitar out, the bridge was working rather parallel with only four springs...
About the shim, seems better but you only recommend 2.5mm, dont you? would it be too much 5mm, 0.2"?
have a great day

[Jeff Highland]

It sure looks to me like your bridge is too far forward.
I'd be plugging the holes and redrilling 5mm back, this will get you the intonation adjustment you need and a little more spring tension.

[Leandro Muñoz]

It sure looks to me like your bridge is too far forward.
I'd be plugging the holes and redrilling 5mm back, this will get you the intonation adjustment you need and a little more spring tension.

but you go with the shim at the neck, or with moving the bridge? I mean that makes sense on both cases... thanks

[Jeff Highland]

I'd be moving the bridge, assuming you have the action pretty much where you want it, and that is where the saddles have ended up for intonation.

[David King]

I agree with Jeff, moving the bridge back seems like your best bet. I would not count on the extra spring length to do much to lower the bridge but you could change the geometry by shimming under the front of the bridge and lowering the saddles by the same amount. That will have the same effect as moving the pivot point up and reduce the leverage of the strings compared to the springs.

[Leandro Muñoz]

Jeff and David, thanks... In fact I did go with the bridge moving, maybe something else more than 5mm... The problem with your pointing David is that shimming under the bridge would make the tremolo block ask for more space in terms of height, between top and back of the body... I dont know if I make it mean it right, but maybe saying that the the fact of the back spring cavity cover being touched or forced outwards by the tremolo block doesnt make my mind happy...
I guess It is pointless to show pictures if everything went ok, so I'll be reporting....

Thanks to all the people who took the care to read and see about my troubles, I really thank you for your time, take care, have great wood-musical experiences