Help ID Old Guitar

[Craig Bumgarner]

Can anyone offer help in identifying the builder and date of this guitar? It was given to a friend by an elderly widow whose husband used to play it.

I'm not very familiar with this type of guitar. Nylon strings. V neck. Massive bridge. Back and sides look like Brazilian Rosewood. General construction doesn't look all that fancy. Plastic binding on the top and some plastic in the rosette. No binding on the back. Not much inlay work. No labels to be found.

It is damaged, numerous cracks in top & back, back has come loose from sides allowing the neck to rotate and cave the upper top. We are trying to decide how much to put into restoration.

[Craig Bumgarner]

A few more pics.

[Greg Steil]

The damage around the soundhole indicates this little unit took a hard knock. Probably extensive damage to the neck block area. Check inside for bracing pattern.

[Mark Swanson]

Everything about that says that it's a Washburn guitar. Probably about 100 years old. Brazilian is nice. Does it have a ladder-braced top?

[Craig Bumgarner]

Yeah, the upper part of the heel got pushed into the top and sheared it. Maybe caused by the neck rotation when the back let go. The braces seem to be intact though. The heel block might well be displaced. If anything is going to be done for this little guitar, surely the back has to come off which should reveal all. Should be easy enough, it is about half off now and no bindings to deal with.

In looking further since I wrote the first post, I think the bridge has been raise with a 1/4" shim at some point. There is some repair damage on the top under the bridge.

Just found a builders stamping in the back joint grafting, visible through the sound hole. I'll try to clean it up to see what it might be. Looks a bit like an oval with a name inside. The name is not legible to me, but it is in script, looks like at least five letters. The last two are definitely ER. The one before the E might be Y or V or U. Above the name is the word BRAND. There is also a number, 4962 in ink, to the lower left of the oval. type set, a serial number I suppose.

Here is a pic, not great but you can see the oval at least.

[Craig Bumgarner]

Mark,

It has three ladder braces, one above the sound hole, two below. There is a diagonal brace running nearly full width between the two lower ladder braces. There are a couple short braces either side of the sound hole, one of which is a crude replacement.

The last two might indeed be RN, hard to tell with the script style.

[Bob Gramann]

Often, those cracks beside the fingerboard happen when the top gets too dry. Since the fingerboard isn't going anywhere, the top cracks beside it. Now, that section of the top offers no support (often the shrinkage pulls the top away from the brace) and the string tension just pulls it on into the soundhole. There's no need for a hard blow to do this, but if you hit it right, it could.

[Mark Swanson]

Old Washburns did have the name in a circular brand.

[Craig Bumgarner]

I've been looking at pictures on the web, trying to find an old Washburn's logo. So far none look similar to what I have here. Will try to get a better picture tomorrow.

[Doug Shaker]

A water heater repair man taught me a trick you could possibly use. Put your phone down in the soundhole and use it to take a photo of the label. That might give you a better look.

[Mark Swanson]

try shining a light on it from different angles- you will need to put the light inside. The bridge may have been shimmed in order to play it slide style.

[Michael Lewis]

The damage at the sound hole looks like string tension and time have taken a toll. Preventing that sort of thing is why "popsicle" braces are so much in demand.

A good digital camera with low light might show the stamped brand better. Mark's idea of light from different angles is good if the brand is stamped in relief. Seeing the shadows of the characters from different angles of light are the key.

[Paul Breen]

[img]

Washburn belt label

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If it is a Washburn, it will have the burned in Washburn belt strap logo. Here is a shot of a Washburn belt label from my 1907, Style 115.

This burn in, stamped label was used from 1883/4 - 1922. Other Washburn stamps used on the center seam strip. According to the book; Washburn Prewar Instrument Styles by Hubert Pleisjsier, other center seam stamps may include;

NEW MODEL (all capitol letters, stacked, NEW over MODEL) with no circle around it - 1886/7 - 1905.

NEW MODEL (all capitol letters, stacked, NEW over MODEL) with no circle around it and another stamp also in the back strip, 1896 STYLE, located on the opposite side of the belt logo stamp, away from the NEW MODEL stamp - 1896.

NEW MODEL (all capitol letters, stacked, NEW over MODEL) with no circle around it and another stamp also in the back strip, 1897 STYLE, located on the opposite side of the belt logo stamp, away from the NEW MODEL stamp - 1896 - 1905.

I can see in the image of the bridge on your guitar, a shadow below it left by a tailpiece. The overly thick bridge on it now does not appear original, although the flattened pyramids on either end are correctly styled.

[Craig Bumgarner]

Thanks for everyone's comments. Paul, what I can see of the logo on the back centerline reinforcement does not resemble the Washburn logo. Here is a better picture.

To me it looks like an oval, with two peaks of some sort (waves?) off to the left. The lettering inside the oval is script but only the last three letters are legible. The last two look like "ER". The letter before this might be a U, but could be a "CI". Contrary to what I said earlier, the word above the script is TRADE (not BRAND).

Paul, thanks for pointing out the shadow of the tail piece. Indeed there are filled holes on the sides where the tail piece would have been fastened. The bridge is a bit of a cludge, the bridge itself is sitting on a 1/4" thick riser that is slightly bigger than the bridge. It looks like the bridge pulled off previously taking some of the top with it though someone took the trouble to glue to bits back in.

So maybe the orginal was not a fixed bridge, more likely a floating bridge with tail piece? That would be cool. Can anyone point me toward a picture of how this might have looked?

Any further thoughts appreciated.

[Craig Bumgarner]

Something like this perhaps?

http://antebelluminstruments.blogspot.c ... piece.html

The tail piece seems to match the shadow. Wonder where I could get a tail piece like that?

[Craig Bumgarner]

Or this perhaps.....

http://kayaker611.jalbum.net/The%20Colu ... an%20Make/#

[Mark Swanson]

Doesn't that look like a large "M" before the oval? I think this may be a Maurer guitar. A goodie.
Made by the Larson Brothers, a desirable guitar.
http://pickerssupply.com/sites/default/files/t_95.JPG

[Craig Bumgarner]

Or this....

http://antebelluminstruments.blogspot.c ... piece.html

Sorry if this is all well known. I don't know much about this kind of guitar, so it it news to me.

[Craig Bumgarner]

BINGO! Good eye Mark, that is is exactly. Thank You!

[Mark Swanson]

<Bowing> Thank you!