My first build - where to start

[Joel Brown]

Many years ago I bought the book Guitar Making Tradition and Technology by William Cumpiano and Jonathan Natelson.
At the time I read part way through the book and thought this has to be the hardest thing anybody could build with wood.
The book has sat on the shelf until now.
Over the past year I took up two interests, wood working and playing flamenco guitar.
The wood working started as a necessity because I need to replace two wood gates on the outside of my house.
Some new cedar ones where going to cost me $750 each. With some trepidation and armed with an old Craftsman table saw, a miter saw and router I made my own cedar gates and they came out pretty good. Along the way I have picked up a lot of tools including chisels, a hand plane, a new Milwaukee router, Dewalt planer and I recently finished building my own router table. My next project will be some bedroom furniture. I have played around with guitars for years but never really progressed. I played and owned a classical, steel string acoustic, electric archtop and now a flamenco blanca. I found a good teacher and feel flamenco is my future as far as guitar playing goes. So now I have a confluence of interests, guitars and woodworking and the urge to build my own is high.
I know have a ton to learn and many mistakes to make. Oh yeah, I am 57 years old so I need to learn this fast. So here is list of questions:

Learning resources: How can I use this web site learn guitar making? What other books should I read? It has been suggested to me that I can find a teacher, anybody know of one in Southern California? I am an engineer and learn things pretty quickly. I have spent some over at Foroflamenco and picked up a lot of good information from the Luthier forum.

Tools: I know I will need more tools mostly hand tools, but which ones will I need right away?

Jigs and Fixtures: I know I will need these, a bending jig scares me the most.

Skills: I have built up my wood working skills over the past year but have a lot to learn, especially using hand tools.

Materials: Where am I going to buy wood to build with?

The way I see it, building a guitar consists of process, each one can be broken down and learned.
This helps me to reduce the fear factor, if I can master one process I can master them all.
Sorry for the long ramble. thanks for any suggestions.

[Len McIntosh]

Hey joel welcome,
I'm no expert but to answer your question would require .... A book....
You have one of the best but I suggest you look for one or two more, in particular one on Flamenco.
Read them and map out a begining strategy.
There are a lot of steps and some can be daunting.
One way to go is a kit from Stewart Macdonald or C. F. Martin. But you can also get specific comports such as a neck or a sound board etc. these save you hours and hours but maybe after reading you may decide to make a neck. The only way is to read the books and decide for yourself.
As for this forum, you have true experts that give freely of their advice but the trick is not to overload your question. Keep questions specific and remember its a journey with lots of steps, enjoy and don't rush it.

[Dennis Weaver]

http://densdoor.angelfire.com/Luthier/

You can bend wood on a pipe heated with a barbeque starter.

Make a mold with your router and some plywood.

The kits are getting pricey. I did a LMI kit with pre-bent sides, pre-carved neck etc... and they just raised their prices through the roof in the past year!

When a kit costs around $500 it is out of hand. Shop around!

Clamps- the 6 in. Quick Release Bar Clamps from Harbor Freight will do ya on a lot of stuff if you don't over tighten them. (like $2.50 each)

Besides the regular wood sources- LMI, Vikwood, Euphonon, Alaskan Specialty, Martin, BC Tonewoods, etc... etc..., Ebay is a great source. SHOP AROUND!

Sounds like you have wood working skills to follow a book on making a neck.

The more I do my first guitars (working on No. 7 now) the more I realize ebony fingerboards and best soundboard graded wood etc... can wait until my workmanship improves!!!!!!!!!

Also You came to a good place here.

[Dennis Weaver]

If it were me-
The book you have has the basics. I bought that book after I had Jose Oribe's book which talks about hot hide glue, so that and other books then looked like "people who did not impress me." Sorry maybe but ... I try to use hot hide glue although it is hard.

Anyhow back to you- You say you like Flamenco guitar.
Here is what I would get- (Money wise)

Alaskan Specialty woods- order Alaskan Yellow Cedar sides and back, not the highest grade.
A soundboard from several src. would be fine. Try to get one air dried for several years.
slotted Indian rosewood fingerboard from Euphonon and fret wire and Schaller tuners (Won't beat the price anywhere on these 3 items)
binding- Ebay has variety and cheapness.

Read that book you bought!!!!!!!!!! Everyone chooses some different techniques etc...

[Clay Schaeffer]

A good second book might be Roy Courtnall's "Making Master Guitars".
For bending the sides I would skip the pipe and go with a heat blanket and a simple block form.
Ebay has some deals on wood, but if you are not able to tell good wood from bad, and reputable dealers from not so reputable, you might want to stick with the well known tonewood dealers. For the first few guitars pick pick good quality, but not premium quality wood. If you finish your first you will most likely build another.... enjoy the addiction.

[Mark Swanson]

You asked how you might learn the tricks of the trade using the internet...well, this place is just about all you should need! There is a huge Library Archive here, bigger than any book out there. It is searchable, and you can plow around in there and find most any answers you need, plus you can ask your questions here and get help.
And we do have members in Southern California here too, maybe you'll get hooked up. 57 isn't bad, our generation will never stop learnbing and you have lots of time!

[Waddy Thomson]

I started when I was 63, about 7 years ago, and only build classical guitars. Had been wanting to for years, but never seemed to have time with other commitments. My go-to book is "Making Master Guitars", by Roy Courtnall. I'm not a fan of the Cumpiano book, but many folks like it, so it must be a personal thing. I've read it twice, and have a copy, but honestly have never looked at it again after I read it the second time, not too long before I started building. I find it hard to use as a reference book. Another book worth it's price is the Bogdanovich book on building a classical guitar. He uses a different method, but his detail work and his information on making wheat and other purflings is pretty detailed. The photography is outstanding. It is also a relatively inexpensive book. I bent my first 13 guitars using a hot pipe with an electric charcoal starter inserted, and a router speed control from Harbor Freight as a temperature controller. I did install a grill thermometer on the pipe to see where the temp was, approximately. Now I bend with a blanket, but do not use a complicated rig. Just a form, slats and a blanket, along with some blocks of wood and a few clamps. Find Mario Proulx's video on bending sides. Simple and effective.

[Joel Brown]

Thanks for all the friendly, helpful and encouraging advice.

Len - Do you know of any books specifically on building Flamenco's?
I was thinking of using a plan on the GAL site from Tom Blackshear for a Manuel Reyes copy.
Being an engineer and having some woodworking skills I don't think a kit is for me, I want to learn the whole process from scratch even if it means some frustration and mistakes. I agree concise questions are best, I find experts don't like wading through long stories.

Dennis - Maybe I am overly concerned about the bending jig because I don't yet know how to do it, but already you and others have given me some ideas.
I read about a jig that people make based on a design by Charles Fox, would this be overkill to start with?
I am really familiar with Ebay and Harbor Freight. I have bought and sold many items on Ebay and only had a problem once, so I think I know how to recognize a good or bad seller. AS you probably know flamenco back and sides are usually Cypress for blancas and Rosewood for negras. Are you suggesting Cedar because it would be cheaper? I have heard some builders using cedar for back and sides, specifically Port Orford Cedar. Yes I will read the book throughly.

Clay - I have heard of Courtnall's book but was reluctant to spend another $100 on a book when I already have one. But since both you and Waddy and others have recommended it I think the investment would be worth it. I find it always to good to multiple view points on a subject. How would I tell if wood on Ebay is any good? I can look at pictures and seller feedback, are there specific questions I should ask them? Are there known good sellers of tone woods?

Mark - Thanks for info and encouragement.

Waddy - Its good to know I still have time to learn this at my age. Thanks for the tips on bending.

[Gordon Bellerose]

Joel,

Like some of the others, I am a bit long in the tooth! (60) I am in the beginning stages of building my first acoustic guitar.
Like the others have said, there are a variety of ways to accomplish any one of the many tasks. Only your reading, and watching a thousand youtube videos will help you decide which method makes sense for you.

Before going ahead full steam on one particular method, ask questions. The people here have saved me a lot of unnecessary work with good advice.
Be careful who you listen to. If you hang around the forum a bit, you will find people who have built many guitars, and have a lot of experience.

If you are going to build a single guitar, then it may not be worth building a lot of jigs and molds. A pipe heated with a heat source that you already own may be the way to go. You will, need some forms and other jigs depending on which methods you choose.
Radius dishes can be made at home, along with go-bar decks, neck mortising jigs, and any other jig you may need.
I have now built a neck mortising jig, a side bending press, and a go-bar deck, mostly with materials I had laying around the shop.

Tools. You can spend A LOT of money in this area. Again, only you can decide what makes sense for you. Guitars were built with hand tools for centuries.

Find a good plan. Mine is full size, and has good detail.
Don't go too fancy the first time out. Simple is good.

Gord

[Joel Brown]

Gord,

My plan is build one guitar and see how it goes.
I have been working as an electrical engineer for 35 years full time and I am looking to retire and do something else.
I can't afford to retire right now, so if I can eventually make a small income building guitars that would be great.
I don't buy tools casually, I decide if I really need a tool and what level of quality does it need to be.
I rarely buy the cheapest or most expensive tool but look for a good value.
I am not shy about asking questions, but I think I better read those books first.

Thanks

[Joel Brown]

Dennis - After reading more about Alaskan yellow cedar it seems it is more related to cypress than cedar, so I guess it does make sense for good back and sides. The same is true for Port Orford cedar. I have heard Spanish cedar is hard to get but there is some coming out of Turkey.

[Freeman Keller]

Joel, welcome to the wonderful (and somewhat intimidating) world of building your first guitar. I built my first nine years ago and it is still my daily player - my old Martins mostly sit in the closet. Since then I have built 14 more, including classical, electric, resonators, 12 strings... I've added tools as I felt that I needed them or wanted to add a new part of the build - my first couple were kits which does save you from doing operations that either require special tools and/or skills. Thicknessing plates, bending sides, shaping the neck, mitering the fretboard - each of those operations can be done by a first timer but each does requires some skill.

Before you reject the idea of a kit, look at LMI's kit wizard - they have several classical style guitars that could be easily made into a Flamenco and the wizard does make substitution easy. I would also suggest reading every build blog you can find (MIMF usually doesn't post detailed build threads but there are many out there). Find out how other new builders have done it, the tools they use and mistakes that they make.

Most people that build classicals do not use an actual mold but rather a "work board". Most steel strings are built in molds - I make mine out of MDF with a band saw (the inner part becomes the bending mold for my Fox style bender). My first few had prebent sides, I bought the Fox machine when I found I was hooked (I also have a little pipe that I use for binding and such). My minimum power tools include a small router (laminate trimmer), belt sander and band saw. A small plane, couple of sharp chisels, rasps, good measuring tools, and some specialized lutherie tools (fret and nut files, some special router bits). If you want to make your own fretboard (I buy mine) you need a little miter box or something for your table saw.

Operations that seem to give newbees trouble include setting the neck angle (particularly with a steel string dovetail), binding and finish. There are lots of sources for help on each of these - take your time and think each through.

You mention the GAL site - if you are a member the latest issue of American Lutherie has a nice classical build thread - the writer purchased a kit of parts and built his guitar working with a well know builder - that's an ideal situation if you can do it.

Lastly, here is the classical that I built from an LMI kit





(and, fwiw, I'm also a retired electrical engineer. Please don't think this will ever supplement your income, just hope it doesn't totally deplete your 401(k))

[Peter Wilcox]

Welcome, Joel. You have lots of time - I started building when I retired from my day job at 67, and though I am not very good at it, it gives me a lot of satisfaction as I ride off into the sunset. I used Cumpiano's book for my first acoustic build (an Irish bouzouki, not a guitar) and it was a huge help in explaining acoustic lutherie methods. He has a website you may be aware of - http://www.cumpiano.com/ - where he has made some revisions to the info in his book, and there is a wealth of other information.

I am still building some acoustic instruments, but pretty much have gone with electrics now, since the sonic results are much less dependent on my skills or lack thereof.

[Dennis Weaver]

Dennis - After reading more about Alaskan yellow cedar it seems it is more related to cypress than cedar, so I guess it does make sense for good back and sides

Joel- Yes that would be a close wood for flamenco guitars at the most economical price!!!! Look around at Alaskan Specialty.

I also have a renewed interest in that wood. I have 10 soundboards in basement since winter of 96-97. Sitka spruce, Western Red Cedar, and Alaskan Yellow Cedar. The 3 Alaskan yellow cedars tap tone ring are the clear winners! So it is a resonant wood!

Building a Flamenco-
The Benito Huipe video on DVD is very reasonably priced. He shows differences between classicals and flamencos. With that basic knowledge you could sort of be further in understanding.

[Len McIntosh]

Joel
Gotta say the folks on this forum never cease to amaze me. Wish mimf was around when I built my first guitars. Mark said it best, you came to the right place!
Negative on a flamenco book but that DVD sounds good.
Oh ya on supplementing your income, hmmm, that may be tricky. Last time I went to music store and saw what was available for very little money was sobering, but on the plus side, everyone in my family who plays, has a very nice guitar as a Christmas or birthday present and I'm the best dad, uncle or brother in law. Knowing their guitar is prized by them and enjoyed almost daily is very rewarding personally and the payback doesn't quit. Our "FamJams" are very special.

[Joel Brown]

I must say I am delighted at all the responses I received here.
I would say I am not depending on making an income on this, but I have noticed custom made Flamencos are quite expensive.
Its hard to find one under $2000 and there are many in the $5000 and up range. I did buy my blanca for $1000 I know the builder somewhat and he told me he was selling it half price because it had some blemishes which I have yet to find. I don't know if I will ever be able to make guitars good enough to sell and it doesn't effect my motivation to start on a first guitar. I am going to keep an open mind and see how it goes.
As far as woods go I am thinking of using Palo Escrito for the back and sides as I would like a more negra sound compared to the blanca I already have.
I have always liked the look of Palo Escrito and it is not very expensive wood. I don't know about how it is to work with. Tom Blackshear built a Reyes model using this wood and that is the plan I am going to use unless there is reason to use something else.
I was also reading claims of Port Orford cedar having the highest strength to weight ratio of any wood including Alaskan Yellow cedar, so I am considering that for the neck. I am not sure if higher strength to weight necessarily translates to a better guitar, the great builders from Spain have been using Spanish Cedar for a long time and look at the results. Obviously I have a lot to learn about the acoustic properties of tone woods. When I get to point of actually buying the wood I will be doing some more research here and asking questions.

Thanks again

[Trevor Gore]

Joel,

Search on the net for "lessonsinlutherie" and you should come up with a guy called Brian Burns. He's engineering inclined (but not "officially" an engineer although he is a ham radio guy) plays flamenco (and gives lessons) and also teaches guitar building on a per day basis for locals or residential if you are based further afield. He's up in Fort Bragg, so maybe a little too far north for you, but call him up, anyway, he's a great guy to talk to.

If you're looking for books, many of the engineering inclined tend to head toward this one: http://www.mimf.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1516. Some other people's thoughts about it are here.

...Obviously I have a lot to learn about the acoustic properties of tone woods...

Here's a place to start.

[Joel Brown]

Joel,

Search on the net for "lessonsinlutherie" and you should come up with a guy called Brian Burns. He's engineering inclined (but not "officially" an engineer although he is a ham radio guy) plays flamenco (and gives lessons) and also teaches guitar building on a per day basis for locals or residential if you are based further afield. He's up in Fort Bragg, so maybe a little too far north for you, but call him up, anyway, he's a great guy to talk to.

If you're looking for books, many of the engineering inclined tend to head toward this one: http://www.mimf.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1516. Some other people's thoughts about it are here.

...Obviously I have a lot to learn about the acoustic properties of tone woods...

Here's a place to start.

Trevor,

I had already discovered Brian Burns site earlier today as I was searching for planetary peg tuners. I am in San Diego so yes it would be 1 hour by air to the bay area and then a few more hours driving, but maybe I could make a vacation out of it. I wonder if teaching over Skype makes any sense, I know a lot of guitar instructors use it. Fortunately I have a local Flamenco teacher I am pretty happy with. Even closer to me is Lester Devoe on the central coast which is a place we visit a few times year, I asked him if I could visit his shop and he politely declined and referred me to GAL which I totally understand. Sometimes being an engineer can be a detriment, I have a tendency to overthink things. Sometime you just have to pick a path and go with it instead of agonizing over the many possibilities and which one is "best". One phrase I often use is "perfect is the enemy of good". I use this a lot in woodworking since wood can be very unpredictable and I don't get upset when things don't go right. It looks like the last link you posted isn't working, maybe it got truncated. I would like to read it though and thanks for the all the other info.

Joel

[Trevor Gore]

It looks like the last link you posted isn't working, maybe it got truncated. I would like to read it though and thanks for the all the other info.

Hmmm. Yes, it was a long link, but it worked in the Preview pane. Hopefully this one will work OK. It's a lot shorter!

[Joel Brown]

It looks like the last link you posted isn't working, maybe it got truncated. I would like to read it though and thanks for the all the other info.

Hmmm. Yes, it was a long link, but it worked in the Preview pane. Hopefully this one will work OK. It's a lot shorter!

Got it. Now that does look like something an engineer would read.
I have a spectrum analyzer at work maybe it will come in handy.