Question about string tension and tuning on non-typical build.

[michael visser]

Just for the fun of it, I'm in the middle of turning a Monkey-Pod leaf shaped fruit bowl into a semi-hollow electric. The day after I found it at a thrift store, I found a First-Act with a maple neck that seemed proportionate for it and I knew it was ment to be.
The scale is 23 1/4, and it fits nicely in a block I've set in it. The body is about 18" long, and 2" thick. I've put a 4" sustain block in it and made an access to one wing. I've also made top from curly maple thats yet to be glued.
I'm wondering if I'll have any issues with tunning because of shorter string length? I have about 4" behind whatever bridge I use, and I was thinking that puting a stop bar back as far as I can would increase the amount of string tension required to bring the strings to pitch?

Solving mysteries without aqny clues.

[Greg Robinson]

Hi Michael, welcome to the new forum!

With the shorter scale length, you may want to use a heavier gauge string set, so that the tension is more "normal", and the strings don't feel "sloppy". For instance, a lot of people that play both a Fender and a Gibson will use 9's on the 25-1/2" Fender, and 10's on the 24-3/4" Gibson, for a roughly similar feel.
Adding length behind the bridge by placing the tailpiece further back will not change the tension, as the tension only applies to the vibrating length of string, which has not changed. It might be argued that it will change the "feel" of the strings, as with a longer after length the strings will be more compliant, ie: easier to bend (less force required to bend the same distance), but you will have to bend the string further for the same change in pitch (work=force x distance, there's no free lunch!).

Hope this helps.

[michael visser]

Thanks Greg,
I have little experience but really enjoying the ride. One reason this question came to mind is that I was given a Gibson Pee-Wee V travel guitar with a 19" scale that has to be tuned up a step and a half to get enough tension on the strings. I also looked at pictures of the early Mustangs (24" scale) and noticed that the trem stop bar unit was set back about as far as it could and wondered if string tension had anything to do with its design.

[Jeff Highland]

The belief that extra string length after the bridge or the nut increases the tension of the string is very common but completely untrue.
Many Bass Players in particular believe they can tighten up their low B by adding extra length beyound the scale
As Greg states it can increase the compliance of the string and actually make it feel looser, whilst the same tension is maintained.

[Greg Robinson]

With significantly shorter scales it can be difficult to approximate the feel of a normal scale whilst maintaining standard tuning. By upping the gauge of strings used you can sometimes get reasonable performance, but as you continue to increase the string gauge, it starts to introduce its own problems, not least of which are intonation problems.
Oftentimes the best compromise is to simply tune the guitar to a higher pitch.

In terms of the Mustang, I'm not sure what the intention of the designers was, but there are many factors that can be considered regarding after length. Whilst commonly believed to play a part in string tension, it has no bearing in reality. Compliance, yes, and therefore the feel of the strings, but no effect on tension.

With regards to the 5 string basses mentioned by Jeff, I have seen a number of 5 string sets where the low B was not wound all the way to the ball end (no idea why, maybe a limitation of the string winding machine?), and so would not work correctly with a top-loading bridge. I think the models of basses that allow through body stringing for the 5th string and top loading for the rest were actually designed with this in mind, and the claims of "added tension" were a spin by marketing departments.

[michael visser]

No worries then! I think I'll focus on aesthetics and functionality with the space I have left. I had set this aside to think about it over a year ago and I'm finding thats a good thing. In the meantime I started and finished a smaller acoustic instrument with the same theme. It turned out well so on I go. Thanks for the imput.

Perhaps experiance is the best teacher. It's nice to be able to chat with folks that have some.

[Jeff Highland]

With regards to the 5 string basses mentioned by Jeff, I have seen a number of 5 string sets where the low B was not wound all the way to the ball end (no idea why, maybe a limitation of the string winding machine?), and so would not work correctly with a top-loading bridge. I think the models of basses that allow through body stringing for the 5th string and top loading for the rest were actually designed with this in mind, and the claims of "added tension" were a spin by marketing departments.

That is actually intentional on some taperwound sets like the Sadowskis, the core wire just rests on the bridge saddle, works fine, supposed to give a clearer sound.
It needs less compensation too

[Greg Robinson]

Huh, interesting. I'm not a bass player myself, and I'd never actually heard of taperwound before. Weird thing is I've seen a few string sets that made no mention of being 'taperwound', yet had this feature anyway.
I've only actually tried stringing a bass with these strings once, and I couldn't get the thing to intonate properly, and because I wasn't familiar with the concept, I just assumed it was defective. It was only when I checked all the other boxes of the same string sets, and than emailed the manufacturer, that I found out it was a feature. I was never explained what the purpose was (despite asking the manufacturer).
They were cheap strings anyway, and I used my stock up as 4 string sets on student instruments.

[Brian Dyskin]

As has already been mentioned, the stopbar being further won't change the actual tension of the strings and as Greg mentioned, the extra string length past the vibrating length will mean you'll have to bend the string further to get the same change in pitch. The happy corollary of this is that for the same string stretch just to fret a note (which changes with the height of the action), the change in pitch will be less, which should make it easier to intonate. This can be especially an issue with shorter scale lengths.