Neck Joint --- Dovetail or Spanish Heel??

[Gordon Bellerose]

I am embarking on my first acoustic build right away, and the plan I have calls for a Spanish type neck joint,
I'm wondering if this is the way to go, or should I alter the plan a bit, and go with a dovetail joint.

Which is easiest? To me the dovetail seems a bit simpler?? and I also believe that it would make any necessary neck repairs/replacement in the future easier.
The plan says the Spanish neck joint is stronger, and looking at it, I believe that might be true.

What do you all do, and why?

[Trevor Gore]

What do you all do...

Double tenon bolt-on.

...and why?

Un-bolts so you can get the neck off in ~2 minutes if you want to.

No more difficult to make than a tapered dovetail (once you know how!)

[Gordon Bellerose]

I have to say that this is the first time I've ever seen that type of neck joint. I like the idea for sure.
Is it as simple as making the end block with a ninety degree extension along the top? Rout it out for the horizontal tenon, and vertical dovetail?
How does it affect tone?
How does it affect the bracing?
Can I find a plan somewhere?

So many questions......

[Mark Swanson]

I've not seen a plan with that neck joint exactly but there are many variations on the bolt-on design, and lots of plans. There are several right here on this Forum, see the Plans page. I use a bolt-on too and lots of us do.

[Craig Bumgarner]

The picture looks like the joint described well in Trevor Gore's "Build" book. He gives the full step process and drawings.

I've made neck joints like this and they are good, but have gone back to the Cumpiano joint (link below) and glue the fingerboard to the top. The Cumpiano joint takes less time to make and is lighter. Yes, it takes 20 minutes instead of 2 to take the neck off, but I don't have to take necks off very often once the guitar is done. The trick is to use just a small amount of hide glue needed under the fingerboard extension, mostly near the end, and just a little around the edges, a hot spatula will undo it easily. . Tone wise, I have not noticed any difference between various joint designs as long as they well made.

http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Articles/S ... block.html

[Gilbert Fredrickson]

The Cumpiano bolt-on neck joint is a thing of beauty, though I do seem to enjoy torturing myself with small thin saws and razor sharp chisels over a sliding dovetail joint.

[Mark Swanson]

One more thing- I don't think you'll find anyone here suggesting that you use a spanish heel. You are shooting yourself in the foot with that joint...there is no chance ever for a neck reset short of cutting the neck off. So I'd forget about that option if I were you!

[Michael Lewis]

If you are going to use steel strings you will eventually have to re-set the neck due to deformation of the body. Nylon strings not so much.

I agree with Mark.

[Alan Carruth]

I use the slipper foot on Classical guitars, so that it looks 'right', but plug in the neck so that it can be reset later. The Spanish heel is part and parcel of the 'solera' method of building. It may have come in with the breakdown of the old guild system: untrained builders who couldn't hack fitting a neck figured out a way around it.

The solera has it's advantages, and I use it when I make harp guitars, to assure the alignment of the harp soundboard with the top, so that all the strings come out in one plane. When I made my first one,I realized that I wanted to have a plug-in neck, but needed to use the solera. What I did was to start with the neck, but instead of building up the heel and slotting the sides, I fitted a separate heel block using my usual mortise, and bolted it to the neck with 2mm spacers in between the neck and heel block. This formed the slot for the sides, and I could proceed with the construction as if it were a normal guitar on a solera, but with a neck that could be easily removed. This worked out really well, and a couple of students have used it since on 'normal, instruments with equally good results You do have to remember to notch the top above the mortise so that you can get the neck out, though!

[Steve Rolig]

My heels look just like Trevor's except I use furniture barrel bolts rather than the threaded inserts shown in the pic for the heel. I embed a simple nut in the fret board extension tenon before gluing on the fret board

[Gordon Bellerose]

One more thing- I don't think you'll find anyone here suggesting that you use a spanish heel. You are shooting yourself in the foot with that joint...there is no chance ever for a neck reset short of cutting the neck off. So I'd forget about that option if I were you!

Thanks Mark. As I said in my original post, the Spanish heel option does not allow for any adjustments afterward.
That is why I am asking questions.

Thank you all for your valued input. When I looked at the plan for the Spanish heel, I thought that it probably was a strong joint, but did not allow for neck removal or adjustment in the future.

I will go with a bolt on neck. Whether I go with the Cumpiano joint, or a regular straight dovetail I'm not sure, but it does seem like the simplest, most logical way to go.

[Trevor Gore]

My heels look just like Trevor's except I use furniture barrel bolts rather than the threaded inserts shown in the pic for the heel.

The neck joint in the pic above does not use threaded inserts of the type typically used in guitars (and furniture). The heel bolts thread into a 3/8" x 3/8" square rod which runs down the length of the heel (perpendicular to the fretboard) and the fretboard extension bolts screw into T-nuts under the fretboard.

Having the neck easily removable is only one part of the deal in this neck design. Having the solid wood under the fretboard extension minimises the hinge effect at the body join that can be seen on many guitar fretboards and having a fully free standing neck structure allows the board to be fretted before it is glued on. With practice, the fretting and subsequent glue-up can be accomplished with such precision that in most cases fret dressing can be eliminated, which more than saves the extra time taken to make the joint, which I would argue is easier to make than a well fitting, properly angled tapered dovetail.

When building, it is best to think in terms of a comprehensive build system rather than mixing and matching styles, techniques and methods. Not only does this make for efficient building (important to professionals) but it also ensures everything goes together in order and as it should with no hard-to-fix surprises (like neck angles not matching top curvatures) down the track, which is important for professionals and non-professions alike.

[Gordon Bellerose]

When building, it is best to think in terms of a comprehensive build system rather than mixing and matching styles, techniques and methods. Not only does this make for efficient building (important to professionals) but it also ensures everything goes together in order and as it should with no hard-to-fix surprises (like neck angles not matching top curvatures) down the track, which is important for professionals and non-professions alike.

I agree with that philosophy. I have built 6 electric guitars, and now want to build an acoustic.
I realize they are different animals completely, so that is another reason I am asking a lot of questions.

I have built a solera. I'm thinking that it can be used for shaping the soundboard "dome".
It can also be used for clamping the body pieces together.

The importance of the neck joint is not lost on me, and is definitely something that needs a lot of consideration and forethought.
I have also built moulds for bending, and am in the "practice" sessions using scrap.

Any and all advice will be given appropriate attention.

[Trevor Gore]

Having built 6 electrics, I suspect this won't be your last acoustic!

Arguably, the most popular small shop build method for steel strings these days is the outside mould, radius dish, go-bars, bolt on neck method. There are numerous permutations of it, but it's probably worth researching if you intend building more than one guitar, even though you've already built your solera. Soleras work well when building in the Spanish style with the integral neck, but once you decide on a separate neck (pretty much essential on a SS build) there's other ways of doing things that I find beneficial and is why I prefer the outside mould/radius dish method.

There's plenty of ways to skin the cat, though. It's mainly a matter of understanding the implications of what you're getting into once you start down a particular track.

[Steve Rolig]

Sorry to have misinterpreted you pic Trevor.

[Gordon Bellerose]

Having built 6 electrics, I suspect this won't be your last acoustic!

Arguably, the most popular small shop build method for steel strings these days is the outside mould, radius dish, go-bars, bolt on neck method. There are numerous permutations of it, but it's probably worth researching if you intend building more than one guitar, even though you've already built your solera. Soleras work well when building in the Spanish style with the integral neck, but once you decide on a separate neck (pretty much essential on a SS build) there's other ways of doing things that I find beneficial and is why I prefer the outside mould/radius dish method.

There's plenty of ways to skin the cat, though. It's mainly a matter of understanding the implications of what you're getting into once you start down a particular track.

I am thinking about building more than one acoustic, for sure.

As I have carved a radius into the solera, I'm thinking that it would suffice as a radius dish. I also believe it will assist in assembly of the body, even without an integral neck. Someone who has a bit more experience can correct me on this, I'm sure.
The outside moulds I am building will work for shaping and bending sides. I will have to look at extending the ends so they can be joined to form a complete mould.
I'm also looking at LMI's neck angle jig, for routing. Is that particular piece of equipment worth it? I think it about 140 bucks.

[Mark Swanson]

It sounds like you are caught up between steel-string and classical building methods. If you're going to get into building steel-stringed acoustics, and like Trevor has mentioned, it would serve you well to get one method targeted and learn that way, so you can work the same with each guitar you build and get your technique down. Get or build all the jigs and fixtures you need to do it right the first time- proper mold, radius dishes and so on, so that you don't build a guitar or two and then have to change the way you're doing things because there are better ways.
Oh, and one more thing, another neck joint for you to consider is the butt-joined bolt on neck. This is a pretty easily made neck joint that doesn't need a mortise and tenon, and doesn't need a huge neck block.

[Gordon Bellerose]

Thanks for your input Mark. I do appreciate all the help.
It seems I may have started off in the wrong direction. Now, I'm thinking I might re-start with an online course. Probably should have done something like this right off the start. It may have saved me some steps.

Has anyone here done one of those, or perhaps bought the book and DVD's from stewmac? I'm thinking I might try the one from O'Brien's Guitars.
Or is there something better yet?

[Waddy Thomson]

Robbie's courses are pretty good. I have been through his on-line classical guitar course, just because I thought it would be interesting to see how someone else does it. I had already established my own routine by the time I did it, but there are many tricks to pick up.

[Gordon Bellerose]

Thanks Waddy. I've seen a lot of videos from Robert O'Brien on Youtube, and I'm also on the list to get new "Tip De Jour" videos by email.
He is a very good teacher, and is probably the way I'm going to go.