First Build - Building from a kit vs building from Scratch?

[Ciaran Cosgrave]

I have put up a number of posts now asking questions arising out of my intention to build a baritone acoustic from scratch as my first ever build. A number of people have advised me to build an standard acoustic from a kit first. It seems to me that, with kits, so much of the work is already done and for the cost of buying a kit there is very little return in terms of knowledge gained.

I'd be interested in people's thoughts on the merits / demerits of starting with a kit,especially from those who have done so. I'd also like to get my head around exactly which of the skills involved in building from scratch can be learned from a kit build and which cannot.

[Mark Swanson]

It seems to me that, with kits, so much of the work is already done and for the cost of buying a kit there is very little return in terms of knowledge gained.

Different kits have differing amounts of work done, many are just raw wood.
If it seems to you, a new builder, that there is little to be gained from a kit, that is only because you haven't built one yet! At this point it is just hard for you (respectfully speaking) to see what you have not yet learned, or are aware of. Many things will pop up to confound your best efforts, we only learn by doing.

[Bob Gramann]

My first, over 20 years ago, was a Martin kit. I toured the factory and bought the kit because I was curious about how a guitar worked. The kit was a box of wood with scanty instructions. The sides were profiled and bent, the top was joined with an installed rosette, the neck was rough shaped, and the fingerboard was shaped and slotted. I read two other books on how to construct a guitar to get an idea of what to do with the parts. The enclosed instructions were good but quite insufficient. I had many challenges but ended up with a very nice guitar (but not pretty) that I used in my gigs for several years. Of course, I couldn't build just one. I had to do another to conquer the challenges of the first. I'm about to go to my storage shelves to pick out the wood for #94. For me, the kit was quite worthwhile. The steps that were already done for me would have been quite challenging for me at that time. And the wood selection and the preshaping had a lot of knowledge built into it. I built three more kits after the first. I didn't start totally from scratch until my 5th instrument when I wanted variations that were not available in kits. You won't lose anything if you start with a kit and will probably gain a lot.

[Peter Wilcox]

In my limited experience (1 electric kit, 2 acoustics and 10 electrics from scratch):

Kit - much faster, less frustrating, probably a better first instrument build both visually and mechanically. Good for practicing finishing skills.

Scratch - you end with much greater building skills, understanding and satisfaction, though the instrument will have its defects - but you learn from those. The next one will have fewer defects.

[Doug Shaker]

OK, let's think about this. What is a kit doing? It is selecting materials for you, doing some of the work, and, perhaps, giving you a definitive methodology for getting the job done.

Most important part is giving you a definitive methodology. You haven't ever done this before. You don't know if you prefer guitars with the bridges close to the soundhole or close to the middle of the lower bout. You don't have an informed you should install the frets before or after the fretboard is glued to the neck. You don't know what kind of bracing system you like. There are all kinds of points during the construction where you will be faced with several valid ways of proceeding and you will need to make a decision. It will take forever if you don't have some way of deciding what way to do things. In my opinion, you either need
1) a teacher
2) a book you are willing to follow slavishly, or
3) a kit with good instructions

Besides instructions, the other thing a kit does is do some of the work for you. My first guitar was a Stewart-MacDonald kit. The sides were bent and the fretboard was slotted. It came with a cardboard mold for assembly. I didn't have to build or buy a mold, I didn't have to buy a fretboard slotting system, and I didn't have to buy any kind of side-bending equipment. This meant that my first guitar was considerably cheaper to build than it would have been if I had bought all that stuff.

My first guitar isn't great. It's over-built and, to get the sound I like, I have to play it pretty loud to drive all that extra weight. Some day, I should probably trim the braces, sand the top down some and refinish the top with shellac instead of the water-based finish that I used. Even so, I think it is about as good as a $1000 guitar in a shop.

[Adam Savage]

My feeling on the subject (given that my experience is very limited - one acoustic built on a course, one electric on a course, and two electrics at home) is that a teacher, or someone who can act as, if not a mentor as such, a sounding board and answerer of questions, is probably more useful than either a book or a kit. If you do not have access to equipment necessary to mill and shape timber, then a kit would be useful, but I suspect that, even if building from a kit, there will be times during the build that problems occur that the kits' instructions do not answer. A book (chosen wisely - and I have already mentioned my particular preference for Cumpiano/Natelson and those by Melvyn Hiscock) is constantly accessible, and will provide you with the necessary guidelines/framework/methodology. Neither are they particularly expensive (assuming you stay out of the Somogyi/Gilet/Gore level).
I think (not having made from a kit) that you will receive far greater satisfaction from doing as much of the actual work as possible, even if it takes you considerably longer, and with possibly greater expense. As mentioned by others, you will make mistakes on your first, but the way you work around these mistakes will only enhance future builds. With regard to the pair of electrics I made at home, I do prefer the aesthetics of the first one, but the second is a considerably better instrument, probably because of the ways I found to overcome errors.

Is there any particular reason you might be thinking of a kit? Having the sides bent, neck join, rosette inlaid, plates thicknessed etc for you? If so, there are ways of doing such steps with a little practice on scrap material, or reclaimed (i.e. cheap!) timber. For my first home acoustic builds, I am making a pair of ukuleles, mostly because (I think) a lot of the processes are similar to an acoustic guitar (with some minor exceptions), but because I they are much smaller, I can use bits of wood that I may otherwise have chucked away (ok, perhaps rippled maple was not an ideal choice for first set of bent sides - but bent they are, and cheap too) as scrap.

Overall, I imagine you would be better off not with a kit and doing it from scratch, but those with a helluva lot more experience than may say otherwise.

If you are ever over in Scotland, you are more than welcome to visit and have a look at my setup.

Cheers,
Adam

[Freeman Keller]

All good comments above. Since I was one of the people who suggested considering a kit, I'll add my two cents. And because I don't know anything about your experience, abilities, shop or goals, I'll tell you mine and you can extrapolate to yours.

I'm an intermediate player, own several very nice guitars. I'm pretty handy, an engineer who is fascinated by how things work. I thought I would add a small body guitar to my collection and thought it would be fun and interesting to build it, knowing full well that I might end up with an expensive canoe paddle. I spent about 6 months doing research - different books, what it would take to equip my shop, what exactly I wanted. Decided that a customized kit made sense - I'll talk about why in a bit. Built an 000 28 clone which has been my go to six string for seven years now (my D18 sits in the closet). Next I thought a small bodied 12 string would be fun - again, a customized kit, followed by a little parlor for my daughter, ditto. Here they are stacked like cord wood



Since then I have built mostly from scratch, but there are still a couple of things I like to buy. I'm pretty proud of this one



and my latest is a little 00 size mahogany guitar which, ironically, was based on a the plans for my first one



OK, what does a kit get for you? Actually there are different levels of kits with different amounts of work pre done but basically, first you get everything you need and usually good quality. You don't have to search the internet for that special length truss rod or a piece of maple for the bridge plate. Second, some of the difficult tasks or those that take special tools are done for you. Plates are joined, thicknessed and the rosette channel is cut. Neck is rough shaped, truss rod channel is routed, the tenon is shaped. You get a neck block that fits. Bridge is shaped, slotted and drilled. Fretboard is radiused and slotted. Braces may be preshaped. None of these are impossible for a newbee, but I promise that if you screw up one fret slot you'll appreciate preslotted boards. You may or may not get instructions and plans (kits vary widely). You may or may not get someone you can call on for help. You will get the challenges of setting a neck, binding, locating the bridge, and finishing. The only power tools you'll need are a drill motor and a router or laminate trimmer (however a band saw is handy for making a mold). Here is a build thread for my first one

http://www.kitguitarsforum.com/archives ... 25_0_6_0_C

I'm scratch building now, however I still buy slotted fretboards and pyramid bridges if that's what I'm going to use. I hated my first carved neck, took it off (thank goodness it was a bolt on) and reshaped (I made some templates from a neck I like). I'm spraying water based lacquer now which I'm pretty happy with. With each build I add one new major tool that I wished I had on the last one - a Fox bender, a router table, smaller router, more bits, belt sander, band saw, table saw (don't use it much), air compressor, dust collection. All sorts of jigs and fixtures. Next on my list is a floating router attachment for bindings - doing the horn of a Les Paul by hand was a pain.

Here is a build thread for the last one - I petered out on posting before it was done but you get the general idea of the additional work.

http://www.harmonycentral.com/t5/Acoust ... p/35542693

Just as long as you know what you are getting into, then by all means build from scratch. I'm very happy that I did it this way.

[Tim Allen]

I would also recommend building a kit first. I am close to finishing my third guitar. My first two guitars were built from scratch, with a hybrid body shape I designed, combining 000 and L5 shapes. The bracing and other elements I also designed, combining suggestions from different plans, posts, and memories. My first guitar was just OK, my second is pretty good if you don't look too closely at the binding, etc. etc.. But it sounds good and plays well. So why am I agreeing that it would be best to build a kit first if my own from-scratch efforts turned out OK?

Well, even though I had a lot of woodworking experience, it was mostly on things like storage units and speaker cabinets--basic, square, plywood. While I enjoyed the new challenge of making a complex shape out of solid wood, mostly thin, it was way tougher than I had expected. And, since I was combining a lot of ideas about what to build and how to build it, I found they didn't all fit with each other. The order of operations is trickier than you might think. I finally decided to use Cumpiano as a default, and relied on the Cumpiano book guitar plans from MIMF as a sort of guide. In any case, I made many, many mistakes along the way, especially on the first guitar. I ruined some wood (most notably, a Honduras mahogany neck blank, which I screwed up following Cumpiano's instructions to carve with a chisel; if you're a beginner, use a rasp). I had to do many steps two or more times, trying to get it right. The process of teaching myself at every stage took effing forever.

I really believe that, had I started out with a Stew Mac kit, and then built my own design, I would have produced two guitars in the same amount of time I produced one. And the second one would have been better than the first one I finally did produce.

Generally, beginners are advised to start with something standard and innovate later. That's the sensible thing to do. Of course, there's a quixotic element to most guitar building. One could argue that it's more sensible to buy guitars rather than build them. So if you really really want to build a baritone guitar first, for which there are no plans, and that's what's motivating you, maybe you should go for it. I am near to completing my third guitar, which is a baritone, and I my experience so far indicates that it would have been more sensible to try to improve on my first two by building a very similar guitar. But, I wanted a baritone, and I have to say that, whatever the final product, I have learned a lot from this effort.

Back to a kit: I would recommend a Stew-Mac kit or another kit that is standardized and comes with step-by-step instructions. You can get a custom "kit" with some prepared parts from other vendors, but that is not the learning guide the way a standardized kit is.

Whether it's a kit or a unique new project, the important thing is to get started and create something, and then to learn from that experience and move forward. Good luck!

[Michael Lewis]

Ron Fernandez made and distributes a video of Benito Huipe, a Mexican guitar maker from Paracho, Mexico. Benito uses very few tools, mostly a large knife, and he gets it done. It is his scraper, his chisel, his router, etc. The point is that you don't need a well equipped shop to make a guitar but you DO need the formed idea of the processes and parts, and the drive to get it done. It just takes longer if you don't have all the tools.

By putting a kit together you experience the process in a methodical and controlled manner following a proven design. The skill begins to grow within you as you become familiar with handling the parts and going through the processes of fitting,clamping, and gluing, as well as all the little things you have to do to continually correct issues as they arise. You don't just read a book and get a skill, it takes practice and building the motor control and muscle memory that hopefully becomes nearly automatic. Watch any craftsman that is really good at what he does and he will make the job or process look easy, and that's where you will want to be but it won't happen over night. You need to do it and do it again, and again until it becomes totally familiar, and you make it look easy.

One important point here is your goal: are you just wanting a baritone guitar, or are you on the path to learning to be a guitar maker? So far most of the information you have been given is directed toward being a guitar maker. If you just want a good baritone guitar it will be less expensive in time and money to go buy one.

[Adam Savage]

Interesting points re:kits. I wonder, Ciaran, if it might help to know exactly what woodworking kit/experience you either have, or have easy access to? It seems that the main advantages to a kit (from what I glean from the above posts) can be summed up :

1) A good methodology (which can be given by a good book too - or MIMF!)
2) A fair degree of machining (can be done with handtools, but tricky if no experience, and slow too)
3) Certain technical procedures (fret slotting, neck join, side bending), which are a bit tricky, but not impossible, with a little assistance/advice. Perhaps pre-slotted fretboards would be the most useful here.
4) Tried/tested design being used - this too can be achieved by using, say, a MIMF plan or follow from a trusted book.
5) Price - even converting to euros, adding postage and import costs will probably not make a StewMac kit more expensive than from scratch, given some specific tools necessary.

Cheers,
Adam

[Ciaran Cosgrave]

Interesting points re:kits. I wonder, Ciaran, if it might help to know exactly what woodworking kit/experience you either have, or have easy access to?

I have no woodworking experience as such. I know it's not the same thing, but I have done quite a bit of carpentry and am pretty good at it. I have also been pretty handy at anything I've done before which involves using my hands. When I decide to do something I'm pretty meticulous about it and don't settle for sloppy work.

Off the top of my head the kit I have so far includes:

Coping saw,fretsaw, bandsaw, Stanley No.4 Smoothing plane, Stanley block plane, Stanley spokeshave, Ahsley Isles cabinet makers chisels (1/4",1/2" & 1"), orbital sander ,belt sander, jigsaw,dremel, drill,set of rasps and files, various sizes and types of clamp, Veritas mkII honing gide, Indian oil stone. I will be getting a router of some kind soon. And I have friend making up a bending iron for me.


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[Tim Allen]

I think Adam has done a good job of summarizing the benefits of starting with a kit.

I can also express it as an analogy: if you build from a kit first, it's like knowing the main streets in an unfamiliar town. As you try to get around to new places, at least some things are familiar and you know where you're starting from. Designing a unique instrument and building it from scratch, with no prior experience, is like wandering around Venice without knowing Italian. Fascinating, but you don't get anywhere in particular quickly.

But regardless of all that--If you decide to go directly to building the baritone guitar, without passing "go" or collecting $200, search the OLF--there's some good info there. And I'll be happy to share the little bit I've found out while building mine. Perhaps as much "learning by failing" as "learning buy doing," but it's still learning.

[Ciaran Cosgrave]

I would also recommend building a kit first...

Thanks for your advice and insight Tim. Aside from all the guitar stuff I've also learned a new word, "quixotic"! That's a nice looking guitar in the photo (nice dog to). Is that one of your "from scratch" guitars or from a kit?

[Ciaran Cosgrave]

All good comments above. Since I was one of the people who suggested considering a kit, I'll add my two cents...

Thanks, once again, Freeman for your detailed response. Nice guitars! I love the mahogany resonator. Looks beautiful. Whenever I see these wonderful creations I always wish I could hear a recording of them being played.

[Ciaran Cosgrave]

Thanks everyone for your help. I think I will start with a kit and while I'm doing that, practice some of the "from scratch" skills/processes on scrap material as suggested by Adam. Ah well, the baritone will have to wait. Now the only question is what kit?

[Freeman Keller]

Thanks everyone for your help. I think I will start with a kit and while I'm doing that, practice some of the "from scratch" skills/processes on scrap material as suggested by Adam. Ah well, the baritone will have to wait. Now the only question is what kit?

Ciaran, I'll jump in here again with a couple of suggestions. First, "kits" are available from several sources and frequently include different things. Both Martin and StewMac sell kits - usually dreadnaught or 000 sized guitars, in rosewood or mahogany. StewMac offers the option of bolt on or dovetail neck joints. With either you basically get what they sell - that means no options or substitutions. They are both very good quality, however Martin's instructions leave a lot to be desired (whereas StewMac's are among the best and if nothing else, you should go to the website and download the pdf for reference).

Many other sources make kits more or less to order - the Waldron link I gave you earlier, Blues Creek Guitars, and LMI to name a few. With these you can choose the body shape, woods, trim and even how much of the work you want them to do. LMI has a cool little gizmo called "the kit wizard" that lets you customize each kit to your hearts content (and budget). If you used one of them you could choose the operations that you wanted to do - for example bending the sides or shaping the neck. They even have an "unserviced" kit which is basically just a box of wood and some instructions. You can also buy "practice" side sets to learn to bend - highly recommended.

Your tool list looks good and pretty normal for basic building (certain for a kit). Add the router (a laminate trimmer is good for most guitar work) and a set of flush cut bits with the different size bearings that StewMac sells for binding routing. You'll need some nut files, a fret crowing file, pin hole reamer, and a few other special lutherie tools but you'll use them for the rest of your career. A couple of good books (Cumpiano/Natelson, maybe Jonathan Kinkead) and the MIMF New Builders mini-FAQ http://www.mimf.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4

As far as which kit to build - I would suggest something that you would want if you were out guitar shopping. Go to all the websites and look at the offerings, think about what you want to own and to play. Enjoy every step of the process - its as much fun and frustration as playing these little things.

[Freeman Keller]

One thing that might limit your choices of kits would be importing to Ireland. Most of the big suppliers know how to do this but it might limit wood choices.

[Warren May]

Why not do both a kit and from scratch in parallel, at least up to the point of closing the box and shaping the neck? I'm a Math teacher and the "see one, do one" approach has always worked for developing skills. At the beginning stage, you aren't developing knowledge, only skill. Once successful at the skill part, the knowledge comes only with practice. That's sort of what it looks like the model most guitarbuilding classes follow with the instructor doing an operation and students following. It's just a series of small steps that lead to a completed instrument. You don't start out understanding, for example, what tap tuning is all about but it is good to know it's out there. Cumpiano takes you step by step (your textbook) and there are a couple of really good video series (Instructors like Steve Dickie on youtube takes you step by step). Homework is in stages...easy ones first (kit with bent sides, carved neck and braces, etc.) would allow you to pass the course followed by the "A" discriminators (Baritone). Probably a "B" discriminator would be to build one exactly like the kit from scratch.

As others have mentioned, kits come in various degrees of completion. An "unserviced" kit doesn't seem to me to have much advantage other than maybe carving the neck and the neck joint...like starting on the "A" homework first. One too serviced, like the little uke and violin kits with closed box, doesn't seem to have any advantage...like having your Mama do your homework. Having prebent sides, carved neck, slotted fretboard, carved braces, etc. would make a good model and is sort of like "teaching to the test".

Gotta go for the graduate degree to really understand how it all goes together (I'm still in about 4th grade myself). Geniuses, of course, exist and they can go straight to the really really hard stuff without learning "skills" first. Then, of course, there are those that somehow know-it-all without really being able to do the work...as a teacher I can tell you those kids never learn anything but they do end up being your boss

[Tim Allen]

Claran, thanks for the compliments on the dog and the guitar. Neither are from kits, though both are hybrids. The dog is a cross between two similar breeds (Labrador Retriever and Standard Poodle), both intelligent mid-sized dogs originally bred to be water retrievers and now mainly used as pets. The idea was to combine some of the best characteristics of both. The guitar is a hybrid between the J-185 and the 000 (with a 15.5 lower bout width, and a nod toward dreadnought depth; it's designed to fit in a D-size case). I hoped to have some of the good points of all these guitars. I call this my "Labradoodle" shape. This is a silly name, but does conform to the tradition of naming this shape after an animal.

[Doug Shaker]

Ahhhhh, the heck with the detailed analysis. Do whatever gets you started building the soonest. Get a-building, join the fun!