Feasibility of three-piece sides?

[Adam Savage]

Greetings folks,
Having asked many questions regarding my electric builds, I am, I'm afraid, going to start asking about acoustics.
Specifically to start with, does anyone have any experience building an acoustic with 3 side pieces, rather than the usual 2?
The reason I ask is that I have some old (at least 60years) probably-mahogany-type timber that had a previous life as a small table that was made for my mum by her dad.
And I would like to make an acoustic guitar from it, possibly all mahogany, possibly using spruce for the top.I can get enough out for top/back but there is nothing long enough to make a standard sized side piece.
So I got to thinking, following the multi-piece top/back discussions, about using a third piece covering the tail end of the guitar. My main concern would be side integrity and extra mass of support blocks over both the joins and the tail, where there wouldn't be a join, but a strap button would still need to be placed.
So I would be most grateful for any thoughts you may have about this idea. If I had a large amount of this wood, then I could test it, but the stock is very limited, as you can imagine.

Cheers,
Adam

[Barry Daniels]

Bad idea. A guitar side is not the place to go multi-piece. Mahogany is relatively cheap and is available in large sizes.

[Adam Savage]

Barry,
It's not the fact that is mahogany that I am interested in, it is the fact that I am reusing a piece of timber with a minor sentimental value.
Could you elaborate on why you think it's a bad idea? I am not dismissing your advice, I would just like to understand the reasoning as well as accept it.
Thanks,
Adam

[Rodger Knox]

Barry's right, 3 piece sides are a bad idea. It will be more work and the result will probably not be as good.
However, as an amateur building for yourself, you have the luxury of pursueing bad ideas. It can be made to work, but it won't be easy. You won't be able to use normal forms on a bender, and there will be a couple of seams in unusual places.

[Rodger Knox]

Here's one of my favorite bad ideas:

http://www.klepperguitars.com/dovetail.html

[Adam Savage]

Roger,
Yes, I have seen that guitar before, and have an opinion on the aesthetics of it, craftsmanship notwithstanding.
As for bad ideas (I tend to be quite proficient at coming up with them), the extra work and vertical seams in odd places doesn't bother me. I am also hand bending and constructing following the Cumpiano/Natelson method rather than using a bender and form, so that shouldn't be an issue either.
Perhaps what I should do is attempt to build one out of timber that I have plenty of (the afromosia I have, for instance) and see what happens, and won't be disappointed with if I'm not happy with the end result.
And if it doesn't work, then maybe a flat top mandolin might be a better idea?
Thanks,
Adam

[Doug Shaker]

I am not as sure as the others that it is a bad idea. It isn't a GOOD idea; it won't improve the sound of the guitar, but I don't think that doing something like this will, of a certainty, produce an awful guitar.

Here is what I would do, if I had your sentimental goals.
1) Position the side pieces such that the join happens in the upper bout or the waist, not the lower bout. If necessary, make it four pieces, but the lower bout is where the magic happens, so avoid unnecessary stuff in the lower bout.
2) Laminate the inner surface of the mahogany sides with a normal-side sized piece of spruce or perhaps a normal bit of side wood. bend the sides and the inner lamination, then use a full-sized side mold with a full-sized caul to hold the laminations together while the glue cures.
3) Don't try to hide the odd join in the side - make it a design element and rely on the spruce underneath to provide the structural integrity that will, inevitably, be compromised by the design elements.
4) Maybe, read Gore & Gillet, and consider whether to build up with a option of side weights to make the top a more active sonic component and the sides less so.

[Clay Schaeffer]

Hi Adam,
Google "Washburn bell guitar" and see if that gets your creative juices flowing. Several makers have used that shape over the years, probably because they had nice wood but a little short. (<g>)

[Bryan Bear]

A Florentine cutaway is a three piece rim. I once made a violin shaped instrument that was a six peice rim. That used very short pieces. The corners offer plenty of strength once the linings, too and back go on. the bell shaped guitar Clay mentions is a good example of how a different shape can get you where you want to be.

Does this have to be a guitar? If the goal is to incorporate this wood into an instrument, consider a mando or uke.

Just how long are the sides?

[Adam Savage]

Doug - thanks for the detailed reply, especially the advice regarding positioning of the extra joins. I have a rough idea how I would like the joins to look - vertical, parallel contrasting strip. As for the book you suggested - I am not sure how I could explain the price to my wife! But I do have a birthday coming up...

Clay - um, I googled the guitar you mentioned, but I can't honestly say I like it, sorry - I shall find an alternative solution. But thanks anyway

Bryan - no, this doesn't have to be a guitar, and in fact I had originally thought about a mandolin, but as I have never played one, I thought about the possibility of adapting for guitar. Now, for a while I've wanted a mandolin, and I don't imagine the techniques are much different, build wise, than an acoustic guitar, so I may end up doing that instead. The wood I have I don't think is thick enough to make a carved instrument, so a flat top it would be.

Cheers,
Adam

[Clay Schaeffer]

Hi Adam,
The wood might be long enough to build an octave mandolin, if you were thinking about mandolin family instruments.
Repair people often scarf join sections of guitar sides to replace shattered and missing pieces. If you carefully match the grain it may not look too bad. If you use a glue with good heat resistance you could scarf them before bending . Scarf joints usually don't require internal blocking, but a side tape would not be a bad idea.
Another possibility would be to do a double cutaway acoustic guitar. Not a new Idea, Blaise Mast did them in the 1820's.
How long is the wood available for the sides?
Using the wood for the top and back of an "all mahogany" guitar (and buying a set of sides) might be another way to go.

Not mentioned by us myopic guitar building types, would be to repair it as a table and family heirloom, if possible. A table built by a father and repaired by a son might have more sentimental value than a guitar built from the wood.

[Bill Raymond]

While not conventional, and not the preferred construction in normal circumstances, I don't see that it would be such a terrible idea. If you back up the joints with another layer of wood, perhaps 2 mm thick on the inside, I doubt it would detract from the strength or sound quality of the guitar. I'd say if the wood has sentimental value to you and you want a guitar of it, go ahead and make one.

[Tom Sommerville]

Consider a violin style design, with separate sections at the waist.

[Bryan Bear]

Not mentioned by us myopic guitar building types, would be to repair it as a table and family heirloom, if possible. A table built by a father and repaired by a son might have more sentimental value than a guitar built from the wood.

There you go Clay, offering really good advice. Somehow it takes all the fun out of it. <g> We are all afflicted with the sickness that makes us unable to look at something made of wood without mentally breaking it down into instrument parts; sometimes it is best to not cut something up. Though who knows someday it might be a neat story. My grandfather made a table out of this wood then my dad made it into a guitar. I took it apart and made to make this jewelry box. That's neat dad, someday I'm going to use it for marquetry in a table.

[Ryan Mazzocco]

Not mentioned by us myopic guitar building types, would be to repair it as a table and family heirloom, if possible. A table built by a father and repaired by a son might have more sentimental value than a guitar built from the wood.

There you go Clay, offering really good advice. Somehow it takes all the fun out of it. <g> We are all afflicted with the sickness that makes us unable to look at something made of wood without mentally breaking it down into instrument parts; sometimes it is best to not cut something up. Though who knows someday it might be a neat story. My grandfather made a table out of this wood then my dad made it into a guitar. I took it apart and made to make this jewelry box. That's neat dad, someday I'm going to use it for marquetry in a table.

... a table that his son will then take apart and make into a guitar... and the cycle continues for the rest of eternity.

[Adam Savage]

Thanks again for the further input. To summarise, it seems that, whilst not the height of sensible thinking and traditional design, there are no fundamental reasons why it shouldn't work. I think I may wait a while and gain more experience before attempting it, however,

Clay/Bryan/Ryan - I understand your point entirely, but the amount of wood in the original table would severely limit any 'future' table dimensions. My concern is to maximise the end products I shall make with this limited resource. I have already made a small lidded box and a 1/12 replica of the original table (to go in my mums dolls house project), so I am some way to achieving my aims. I think a guitar (or similar) is a nice way to go too.
Cheers,
Adam

[Simon Magennis]

If you google Torres FE 08 you will see an over the top 19th C guitar with sides which I belive are made from two pieces. Lots of people have made replicas in varying degrees of accuracy so there is quite a bit of info. I suspect there is even a thread here about it. I know I have seen a discussion relatively recently (last 12 months or so) some where or other.

[Bill Raymond]

Simon, the Torres FE 08 has sides that appear to be made of 2 half width sides with a decorative strip sandwiched between (although it's not clear whether they are separate pieces or the strip is inlaid in a full width side). Adam was asking about making sides of wood that is not long enough, not about sides that aren't wide enough.

[David Bingham]

You never did say just how long a piece that you have to work with. What about a smaller guitar like a Martin Size 5?
http://www.martinguitar.com/guitars/ite ... artin.html
According to this chart from the old archive, the Size 5 body length is 16 inches with a lower bout 11 1/4 inches wide compared to a 20 inch long body with a 15 5/8 inch lower bout for a 14 fret dread.
http://www.mimf.com/old-lib/martin_dimensions.htm
They have a really short scale of 21.35 inches but are intended to use light gauge strings tuned 3 half steps high (terz tuning) to get more tension on the strings and they sound surprisingly good. Medium gauge strings tuned to standard will work too and even though it doesn't give you quite the zing of terz tuning, it still sounds quite good for such a small guitar.

[Matthew Lau]

Well said!