Ergonomic bass designs

[Beate Ritzert]

A quick introduction first: i am a hobbyist builder doing one or the other instrument over the decades of my life. Currently i have successfully done two guitars and two basses, mostly unconventional or demanding (an archtop guitar as my second build).

currently I am in the early stages of brainstorming of an ergonomic bass. Brainstroming means that i am still trying to figure out what makes a bass ergonomic.

Well, the main aspects seem to be:

- scale length
(shorter scales are better from the point of view of pure ergonomy. Of course, form follows function, and that is first of all the sound... (but i short- and medium scales...))

- body shape: freedom of playing hand to reach high registers
- good positioning while sitting
- good balance on the strap
- vertical angle of string plane relative to player (torqual necks and similar ideas like rotated necks)

Of course i know the ideas of Toone, Klein and others. I even tried out some ideas in my recently finished shortscale RD bass project.

I must admit that - although i never had one in my hands - neither Orchid nor the Klein bass fully convinces me - i am especially unsure on the small distance between strings and leg when i am sitting nor am i shure on the best position of the cutout for the leg.

Any place where i can learn more (i am aware of http://buildingtheergonomicguitar.com/) ?

The bass itself will probably be built from walnut and curly pear; an old maple neck intended for a fretless Framus Nashville bass will be recycled. Scale will be about 32". I have even ideas for a shape, and i will test some of these in a very unconventional guitar project i have just started. But a bass is a bit different - the longer scale and the different playing technique impose somewhat different ergonomic demands.

Best Regards

Beate

[Mark Swanson]

If you look at the plans for the Mezzaluna bass on R.M. Mottolla's website http://liutaiomottola.com/instruments.htm you'll see his version of a ergonomically designed bass. (Scroll all the way down on that page.) I've built a couple of these and they are very comfortable. The weight of an instrument is one more factor to consider!

[Beate Ritzert]

That's a very interesting design, thank You - and very appealing.
Remarkably: again this short distance from the strings to the legs while sitting. and the position of the "leg cutaway". Looks as if should quickly setup a prototype from some rests of wood...
I think it might be worthwile to figure out and understand what all these designs have in common (which i did for my guitar building project) and why.

Best

Beate

[Dan Hehnke]

I agree that having the strings that close to your leg is kind of weird for me. But it seems like personal preference. On my ergonomic guitars I like them to sit much higher while sitting down, but then again a guitar is played much different than a bass.

If I had to list my top few important features for an ergonomic bass or guitar:

Weight
Balance
Scale length/Multi scale lengths to preference
arm rest shape
cutout shape for sitting
neck angle to preference

Not necessarily in that order...

Just for fun I've attached a picture of my latest attempt at an ergonomic guitar. It's not finished yet, but I did put it together with one pickup to try it out and it's very comfortable. I've designed the body so that potentially you could mount the tuners on the bottom end with minor changes to the shape....

[Beate Ritzert]

Wow, interesting, that one will become really pretty. BTW, i arrive at a fairly similar model in my current attempts (the red contour is actually what i am building):



BTW: the instrument will be a "breaking all rules" thing: cheapest wood, spruce compounds, but dried over years in my cellar, reuse an old neck from a cheap german guitar, a chinese telecaster bridge, self made low impedance pickup (s?) with lipstick like construction and (probably) a low voltage tube preamp. Just for the fun of it, and trying to obtain as much as possible simply due to intelligent construction and to learn. So this project cannot fail....

An (IMO actually prettier) earlier version of this design will probably the starting point of my bass project. Fanned frets are really interesting but not planned - imagine variable scale length on a fretless bass...

Best

Beate

[Jason Rodgers]

Regarding string path distance to treble-side waist: the guitars that jazz guitarist Charlie Hunter has had made for him by Ralph Novak and Jeff Traugott are noticeably "off center" for his nearly-exclusive seated playing style. That is, the string path is not centered on the guitar body, but lies more to the bass side of the basic LP body shape. The early guitars that Novak made for him had relatively small bodies, with Novak's signature shape, and the guitar sat too low. I saw Hunter several times in concert during that era, and he used a block of foam (about the size of a brick) to prop the instrument up to the height he wanted. Subsequent iterations of his 8-string instrument (now 7-strings!) have allowed for this playing height preference in the body shape. While it looks a little odd at first glance, if you're building an ergonomic instrument that is already straying significantly from "normal" body shapes, I see no harm in putting a little more distance between the string path and treble-side waist.

[Dan Hehnke]

Yeah that does have a very similar shape! I suppose it makes sense, and you have the larger upper horn which will be required to make a bass balance well on a strap of course, with the longer neck.

[Beate Ritzert]

considering all these suggestions i think much of the details of the cutouts depends on the desired playing position. Hunter's guitar, for example, seems to be optimized for the flat position on the right leg he prefers (which apperas logical regarding the long scale of his instrument and his playing style), while some of the other designs seem to be intended for mor upright or 45° positions. Actually my idea behind using the 2nd cutout is becoming able to test very steep, almost upright positions.

best

Beate

[Jason Rodgers]

Local (to Portland, OR) jazz guitarist John Stowell plays his guitars very upright, holding the guitar on both legs in front of him, with the upper bass bout or horn just under his chin. The nut is about at temple level, and while my arms would get tired holding them aloft like that, he plays with the lightest touch and gains wide voicings from the ease of reach with the left hand. I've always wondered if a guitar notched on the lower treble bout like your sketch would appeal to him.

By the way, did you mention for whom this guitar would be made? Do you have some particular tendon or joint issues that require such a design?

[Dan Hehnke]

I find having those two cutouts works great for playing sitting with the guitar in an upright position. My previous headless ergonomic guitar was designed that way too. Personally I don't like playing in that position, but the guitars seem to balance that way just fine with that sort of cutout.

[Dan Hehnke]

Ooh, hey Jason. I lived in Portland the previous 7 years, until recently moving to Colorado. If you are into guitars, and music, you should definitely check out Scott Pemberton. For a while I really wanted to build a guitar to suit him and try to convince him to play it but then I realized two things: 1. He has an awesome old Gibson with an amaaaaazing setup (I got to handle and play it a little bit...ridiculous low action, and good overall balance and feel). And 2. He can play a guitar better than anyone I know in ANY position! He doesn't even use a strap anymore, even when standing up.

I know he is an anomaly, but just thought I'd share. I watched him almost every Tuesday for free at the Goodfoot for a few years, and soon after I moved away he started touring alot, and no longer does the Tuesday shows.

[Beate Ritzert]

By the way, did you mention for whom this guitar would be made?

I am a DIY builder and make this instrument for myself.

Do you have some particular tendon or joint issues that require such a design?

I have. In my left lower arm. Not on guitar but on bass - i cannot play scale lengths above 32" (fretless), otherwise my left hand and lower arm will start to hurt. My current profession also involves a lot of strain to my hands. So i must really take care about ergonomics. But i admit that this project is mostly driven out of curiosity.

Anyway, long time ago one of my violin teachers corrected a lot on my instrument position and support ... immediately my playing improved a lot.

best

Beate

[Andrew Porter]

You might find this interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdGp-H47ikg

[John Sonksen]

Hi Beate, this is a pretty radical design that looks like it would really help with ergonomics, and be really difficult to build.

http://littleguitarworks.com/torzal-natural-twist/

[Jim McConkey]

Twisted necks have been discussed here extensively. Louie Atienza posted a jig for making them not too far back.

[Beate Ritzert]

I am re-using an existing non twisted neck. So the neck itself may be rotated a bit but not twisted. If i would build from scratch i would probably dare the twist....

Today i cut the raw body. Indeed the upper bow collides with my breast. Let's see how far i'll be able to compensate by thorough contouring the body. This must be done with the neck set in - hopefully next monday...

[Beate Ritzert]

Trying the body with a bass neck was pretty surprising: first of all the shape does not work at all with the long scale. These ergonomic shapes apparently a pretty radical - they feel either great or are as uncomfortable as can be. Surprising? Maybe in its radicality.

Moreover i had the desire to have the strings much closer to my leg. Simply let my right hand fall down and have the strings in an position approprate for my fingers. Immediately, and unlike more classical shapes. This clearly pointed toward using leg cutouts similar to the Klein bass and hence the Orchid.