Voicing, windway, fipple, tone holes and undercutting

[Andy Barnhart]

A lot of stuff you can get through the public library here and you can request it online if you are computer savvy; they have reciprocal agreements with a bunch of academic and other libraries. You just have to go through their special portal and then you can get at all sorts of stuff. I can get most of Recorder magazine online, for example.

I sometimes wonder if trying to recreate the exact bore profiles is a meaningful exercise. It may well have been an instrument being "retuned" and would have been made differently if they wanted that tuning from the start. And after listening to a (supposedly) faithful Tartu recorder being played on Youtube I wonder whether or not it was an accident it ended up in a latrine.

Something else I have played around with is teaching me something about labiums and windways (but nothing about fipples - ocarinas. I have made a couple of the style where you take a block of wood, slice off one side, hollow the center and then make the airway and labium on the underside of the sliced off piece before you put it back on. The plan I have has you the channel at two depths - 1/16" where you blow into it and 1/32" where the labium is with the window removing the transition between the depths. That way the edge is exactly 1/32" down in a 1/16" stream of air. The cavity in the bottom has to start right under the window. If you follow those directions, they work every single time. I am making these to do carvings on (there is one in my avatar; the little cherry totem in front center is an ocarina.

[Andy Barnhart]

The plan I have has you the channel at two depths - 1/16" where you blow into it and 1/32" where the labium is with the window removing the transition between the depths.

Left a word out:

"The plan I have has you route the channel at two depths"

So you route a channel that is the windway all the way past where the labium will be cut, but it is only half depth at the labium point.

Cut into another tube last night and got another whistle bell tone that sounds reasonably good without much fiddling. Experience is starting to pay off. Still would like input on tweaking, but I need to get a good mic to share audio.

[Andy Barnhart]

OK, specific whistles to be I need help with. 2 blanks, both with only the window and labium cut, using ramped fipple plugs but no carved windway above it. Then the whistle I made the other day that doesn't sound as good today. I think that may be due to oil drying. A couple of notes have gone a little flat on me. It is very humid here tonight and I was working on them in the hot garage and then brought them inside to record. Anyway, the 2 blanks go to the second octave too easily IMO.

http://youtu.be/NSGorEY5nLA

EDIT - the octave on the whistle sounds better than that squawk but I was too lazy to redo that...

[Andy Barnhart]

If we didn't have to use our real names, I would be tempted to change my ID to "Thread Killer"...

I cut another window, inserted another plug with a slight ramp and have another tube that goes to octave way too easy. Labiums are not undercut and bores are completely intact; I am avoiding the things that I cannot undo hoping I will get some guidance before I take the next step...

[Stephen Bacon]

Andy,
Hi, I am visiting in Seattle but now have internet, I'm up here picking up a 'large' concert of recorders, biggest being 8 feet. Unlike Yuri I have had great success with cylindrical bore sopranos with great 8va's, many folks have. But looking at your pictures you could use help. I have as well made successful whistles with the same 1/2" bore. The voicing on both are quite varied. However the principals of recorder voicing are very applicable to whistles. It is a good idea to review the uses and needs of both. I am surprised Yuri had not better luck with whistles as he seems to make a good tabor pipe. I will now go back and review your requests. I started making by getting the best instruments I could get my hands on and copying them till my reproductions played the same. At that point I sought out historic originals to base my reproductions on. Now I design from originals but base my alterations on what my clientele requests. Be for warned though Trevor Robinson introduced many of us to the craft of making, the compound bores that Yuri speaks of are what Sir Trevor left out.

[Stephen Bacon]

Andy,
Hi, I am visiting in Seattle but now have internet, I'm up here picking up a 'large' concert of recorders, biggest being 8 feet. Unlike Yuri I have had great success with cylindrical bore sopranos with great 8va's, many folks have. But looking at your pictures you could use help. I have as well made successful whistles with the same 1/2" bore. The voicing on both are quite varied. However the principals of recorder voicing are very applicable to whistles. It is a good idea to review the uses and needs of both. I am surprised Yuri had not better luck with whistles as he seems to make a good tabor pipe. I will now go back and review your requests. I started making by getting the best instruments I could get my hands on and copying them till my reproductions played the same. At that point I sought out historic originals to base my reproductions on, so I could market them with integrity by avoiding just copying a current makers work. Now I design from originals but base my alterations on from what i have learned as well as what my clientele requests. Be for warned though Trevor Robinson introduced many of us to the craft of making, the compound bores that Yuri speaks of are what Sir Trevor left out.

[Andy Barnhart]

Yes I could use help. The bore is 14mm and a 1/2" dowel slips through that easily (that's what I tap my plugs out with) but it is a little under 5/8". D whistles are pretty near the top of the range for that bore, but most info I have says they are in range. I am having trouble with B and even A on a longer blank before cutting them to be Ds or Cs, so I don't think the bore to length is the issue.

How many pieces in an 8' recorder and what is the ID/OD? I assume it has keys; are they remotely operated with levers or cables or ???

[Stephen Bacon]

I don't see the basses till tomorrow. Most the 8 footers I have played have only a key for the lowest note. The tone holes are angled and the hands are well spaced. They can be made in one piece, but I am hoping these are in three.
Concerning your project, the problem with the larger bore is the second 8va and volume. Ideally with the cylindrical recorder you want a strong bottom end and softer high end as the high notes naturally carry much easier. As the bore gets larger the second 8va suffers and range decreases so much so I am not sure we can coax your instrument beyond the renaissance range of a 13th for the recorder. Or make a whistle that doesn't become overly shrill above second register a. But I am willing to work with you.

[Andy Barnhart]

Thanks! I am going for the latter option - whistles - for now. I think the bore to length is around 18.5 on a D and 21 on a C. It didn't seem that large and the article on the recorder called for that bore. If I can reliably get 2 good octaves with the whistles, I will be pleased. I have one longer blank that currently has a sharp A bell tone that I can make into a B flat and have a ratio of nearly 24 if that would be a better learning experience.

[Andy Barnhart]

More monologue, though Stephen did ask in another thread that we continue here to discuss the whistles; others are certainly welcome to chime in.

Here is a short video of my running the scale on the walnut D whistle I made a few days ago and gives me some hope (and a whistle to practice with and play if I don't go in the upper half of the 2nd register much):
http://youtu.be/IeCTW8ducHs

This is a video of me showing and talking about 3 whistle bodies that seem like good candidates to work on with some suggestions and feedback. I have several more blanks bored and turned close to final that I could use instead if I need to take a step further back (these have soundholes). I have lots more that can be Ds or Cs, but the long one in the video is the only blank I have bored long enough to do a B flat:
http://youtu.be/O5HsOZd4Blk

Anyway, feedback welcome...

[Stephen Bacon]

Tuning, as Yuri indicated recorders made for historic performance practice are tuned with an understanding of temperament. In reality however a recorder made for historic performance practice is even more complex than that. Good recorders voiced properly have flexibility of pitch, where the pitch can be altered without changing the volume as well as the volume being changed without changing the pitch. Seems impossible but it is not with advanced technique. Next if I was to make a soprano in Pythagorean or Just temperament I would only be able to play the natural c scale in that temperament . If I am to play many scales in that temperament I rather need to employ a flexible tuning that favors those purer temperaments in a variety of keys. Not so many as one rarely meets very challenging key signatures in historic music except in the high baroque. Therefor to best tune historical recorders, an understanding of performance practice is necessary. In the same lines whistle players as well favor pure intervals where possible, so the ability to be flexible in tuning with and understanding of the music is part of the learning curve. I hope I have confused you enough to get an understanding of what I am talking about, it is far from just watching numbers on a tuner. First as I see from your chart you need to work on your breath control. Long notes held constant is a matter of control which requires practice. And when tuning breath pressure is to increase as one goes up the scale but in decent recorders it increases slowly and steadily. A device to measure and record breath pressure is beneficial, especially in the beginning , especially if you are not using a superior instrument to pattern on.
In hole placement remember, that unless you make very thin walls the thickness of the walls effects your calculations. In whistles I make thiner walls than recorders but I keep the walls thick and high at the voicing.

[Stephen Bacon]

That all being said, tune as you have for now but you will need to grasp the subtleties of tuning if you are to be successful. I sure wish you were using a smaller bore, a little makes a big difference. As the bore becomes fatter the ability to play high notes cease. I remember a very informative booklet on flute craft by Mark Shepard that would serve you well at this time. In some of your pictures you have started to counter sink your holes from the out side. Why? Also the type and size of voicing you are using is quite suitable for a sweet one 8va "Coroi" waldorf style flute but no where near the size you will need for a session whistle with a useable 2nd 8va. Learning voicing on a duct flute is by no means easy, you must strive for perfection. All surfaces leading into the window must be smooth and without a flaw. The plug must fit without air leaks. All surfaces must either be parallel , perpendicular or slanting away from the point of interaction of the air flow. The underside of the edge or cut up is of immense importance, especially in its relationship the wind channel roof. I cannot stress enough the use of a decent instrument to pattern after at this point. In order to help you on your voicing I would need very close up pictures. Without any help I think in time you will achieve your results thru trial and error. I also think you should make recorders as well, but please don't call them medieval recorders. ( Even the Dordrect may have had a choked bore like a kana). An 8va and a half is the range you should strive for as it will fit the music and is historic. For whistle you will need the full two 8va's for that you will need much refinement on your workmanship and voicing. I am sure it will come.

[Andy Barnhart]

I definitely need to improve playing chops. Been working on that off an on, but too much "off" lately. My wife plays flute/piccolo and can play whistle well enough to tell me when I am way off versus reasonably close.

I forget which instructions suggested wallowing holes that way, but I will ditch that.

A friend of my wife's has a pretty extensive collection I could examine closely. My only example right now is metal.

I will have to start shopping for a smaller gun drill bit. I can bore smaller with more passes and less accuracy with other bits.

Right now I am taking kids to pool and I will sit and run scales on that walnut D...

[Andy Barnhart]

A couple of quick updates...

I was just browsing available bits and the next thing I knew, I found myself clicking "Buy" on a bargain priced .4840" bit, 16" long. It looks to have a slightly different shank/handle that my current one, so I may have to make another one of my high tech "hikree branch new matic fittins"


I am going to turn the waste blocks round on the two I was thinking of making into Ds and make Cs instead to get the bore to length ratio over 20.

The other is that just a couple of hours of running scales made a pretty significant difference in how I play that walnut D. But even with better breath control, the range pretty much ends on A in the second octave. I am going to start attending a local session to keep me a little more focused on practicing. I used to attend one as a mandolin player and a few times with a metal whistle. I can play better than my video indicates when I have been practicing, but I do need significant improvement to expect to be able to know if tweaking is making a difference.

[Yuri Terenyi]

Stephen, I have come across the article discussing te possibility of the Dordrecht having had a choked bore. It was written before any of the other known truly Medieval recorders were found. All of the others have a semitone for the first step, so it makes it rather probable that the Dordrecht had that, too. In fact, in a way they can be described as some sort of in-between link between whistles and true recorders, more like an instrument based on 6 fingers, with a semitone leading-note thrown in, and a thumbhole for good measure.
Talking about Just temperament, well, I make some double polyphonic pipes (recorders). These have basically the right-hand bit of a recorder in the right pipe, left-hand in the left pipe. (With more notes playable, as LH little finger has a note to itself, and so does the RH thumb) Well,every single combination of fifths, octaves, fourths, and to a more permissive level, the thirds, have to be in perfect tune. Because there is no possibility of flexible breadth control, it has to be built in. (you can't have breadth control in the normal sense blowing two independent pipes at the same time). Talk about time-wasting... It takes me maybe a month, if I'm lucky, to get the tuning right, and stable. Thing is, with the two windows practically blowing into each other, there is no room for any beats, they sound awful, even if the deviation is 1 or 2 cents' worth.
While on the subject, I also make straight recorders (Renaissance type, but simpler, since the second 8va isn't used as far up) combined with a drone pipe. These have to be tuned to the drone, every note. Together they sound great, but that's because each note plays in perfect tune to the drone. If you play the recorder on its own, not blowing the drone, you see clearly enough that something is not quite right as soon as you stray into some sharps or flats.

[Stephen Bacon]

Yuri, I saw your double pipes on the web, I like them a lot. Check out Launeddas on uYou tube, soon you will be making three pipe combinations. Have you seen Bob Marvin's Flauto Doppio? They will definitely effect your approach on this. But maybe that is your inspiration. I have pared tabor pipes in various sets, not only is tuning a task but one has to deal with over tones and difference tones in the high notes. We have a Bainbridge double Flageolet in the collection. Beautiful pure thirds, not Pathagorian, still working on an appriciation of that, though I allow for them in my tuning. I got the large recorders, built under the tutelage of Steve Silverstein by Bartrum in the 70's probably after Marvin's but in 440. They need a lot of work. I've got a trade with David O'henessian to build a big one with him if he ever does one again , if. Hoff built a killer full range soprano with a cylindrical bore in the 30's but with German fingering, This same instrument appeared with english fingering later in the hoff renaissance models of the 70's. I know three prominent modern makers who continue a variation on this. There is a trick of choking the bore at the socket to bring in the upper range. I have made both alto and soprano "medieval" straight bore instruments but the client wanted a full step at the bottom even though I wanted 1/2 step so I made the plugged lefthand hole a half step. Sounds like a lot more info is out there today. I only knew of two. When i play cantigas on bagpipes I like a half step at the bottom.

[Yuri Terenyi]

Well, I started playing around with double pipes about 15 years ago. There was an article by Julian Goodacre in an obscure quarterly called the Chanter in about 1980-85 or so, about him getting a provisional order for a double-chantered bagpipe. I won't go into details, but that's what got me on the extremely ungrateful path of designing double pipes, on-and-off (mostly off, of course), going on today as strong as ever. Both bagpipes and flue pipes. I have amassed all sort of info about these beasts, including the Bainbridge and rip-offs of it. The thing about the very basics of double pipes is, what do you want it for? It's a very important first step. Just about all depends on how you answer it. The 19th c. double whistles are designed with a very specific music in mind, which depends, and in a lot of instances consists entirely of, thirds. What I had in mind is polyphony, not harmony. Which is why my double pipes are a.) chromatic, b.) pure on fourths/fifths/octaves/unisons, and still very good, but not pure on thirds. I'm not even entirely sure, but suspect that the wolfs (or is it wolves?) are banished into the regions not obtainable by the range of the two pipes. By the way, work is still in progress, and by now I have no less than three distinct types of double flue pipes (that's apart from the drone/recorder combination) and one bagpipe (also playable as a windcap option, in this case without drones). I do know of course about the launeddas, and also about a lot of other double pipes. Half a year ago an order hit me completely out of the blue, for a reconstruction of the Greek aulos. Now I'm going to brag insufferably a bit. Thing is, the order came from a museum curator, who wanted to have a playable set to demonstrate what the museum-going crowd could only see on vase paintings and sculptures. Having ordered a set from a Greek maker, who bragged on the internet about his aulos, the curator was forced to send the set back, and try to get his money back, after the set turned out to be a turist rubbish. Secoind attempt, from another Greek maker, equal results. After that he swore that he's not going to buy a set sight unseen, so when he contacted me he asked for some photos at least to see if I'm serious. Well, it happened that my camera packed up just then (I still don't have one), so I in all innocence told him so. I also asked for a rather higher price than the Greek guys (still nothing extraordinary, I have to say). The outcome is that my set is there, proudly used as a demo instrument, and he's likel;y to order another, deeper set.
That was just a curious aside, by the way.

[Yuri Terenyi]

After an interruption, volume 2. (I don't seem to find the "edit" button, but no matter.)
I know Bob Marvin's relevant articles, of course. Haven't had any personal experience with his double pipes, but to anyone curious about them, go to Youtube. (the magic wand...) Pierre Hamon plays a couple of pieces on one of Bob's double pipes. (titled double recorders on youtube.) I have to say that the latest models I'm working on have directly derived from multiple observation of Pierre's fingering of the melodies. (as well as Bob's all too brief article on the Oxford double pipe, the only original one apparently in existance. In FORMHI somewhere, circa 1980-es.) I contacted the museum where it's held, and sadly, no, they don't have either photos or any known plans/info on it. The pipe is also in very frsgile condition. It seems that Bob's brief article is the only one ever done. (I have a very grainy photo, published as an illustration in Bartha's article on the Avar double pipes from Hungary, published ca 1936-37., though.)

[Andy Barnhart]

I am in the presence of a couple of very accomplished makers.

Yuri,

The museum demonstrator job is definitely brag worthy; I am still not quite making the tourist junk reliably yet. Your site is definitely on my short list for inspiration.

Stephen,

It looks like in the photo that you slipped in that you use a guide rail system of some sort. Is that correct?

I used a guide for some of mine and eventually abandoned it, finding that I was having an easier time of it by using the tailstock to drill a short smaller pilot hole and then hand feeding the gun drill bit through a shop made bearing center and letting it self center in the blank. It self centers very well; the bit comes out into the inside of the headstock spindle. My guide was a large bushing though.

My initial guide and the first center I used:


and then I changed to using this bearing center:


I see a lot of different setups out there and will likely upgrade if I ever start really doing production. I do get very slight wallowing at the end the bit is fed in but within two or three inches a dowel turned to the inside diameter will be tight at either end.

[Stephen Bacon]

Andy the attached guide was really only the connector to my tool rest on my machine lathe.Yuri, Aulos have always fascinated me, I have seen many reproductions , but few that correspond to the iconography. For demonstration purposes the collection has numerous double reed pipes from which to choose, though I am by no means under the impression these are true aulos either. I'd love to see what you came up with.